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This could easily go up to 10,000 replies and it probably would convince few people to switch positions. I recently read through the whole NT for verses that applied to this very subject. From my reading it seems there are more verses that emphasize the faith aspect of salvation rather than the election aspect. That being said both are definitely mentioned, so whatever a person decides it has to incorporate both concepts.

My take on it is this, from Rom 8.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The order is foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified. The process starts with foreknew, which leaves a door open for a meaningful decision by a person not predetermined by god.

Acknowledging we are dead in our sins and trespasses, it seems we need some power to quicken us, like Rom 1 says here For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes. There are a number of other verses that mention the power of Gods word and the gospel. So God offers us the Gospel and gives us the free will to choose, and those he foreknew would believe he predestined to all kinds of good stuff.

I personally do not think love and faith can exist at all in robots who are pre-programmed to make a certain choice, which is something Calvinism seems to require. Reading through the whole Bible, there would be an awful lot of wasted pages discussing love, faith, and choosing, believing etc, like they matter. Why put a tree in the garden of eden, at the beginning, if God’s intention wasn’t to give them a choice.

If God lined up a bunch of criminals, and then pulled the trigger of a gun, shooting 9 of 10 people, some may say he would be just since they are all criminals. However, if he made them, before they were born, some to be saved and some to burn in hell forever - well let’s just say I have a hard time reconciling that with “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So I’m still meditating on it, and probably will be 20 years from now. I’m sure when we get to heaven and he explains it, we have a duh moment.

Thanks for your very thoughtful post, thoughtful for me anyway; it made me think.

And I think we must always be aware that we cannot know everything, especially about God. We can know some things: He is merciful, and perfect love and perfect goodness and perfect justice. He is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

These I think we can and do know. So when we end up with a view or description of God that contradicts these, we can know we made a wrong turn somewhere.

We can know that God created man with free will. As you so clearly state, Holy Scripture makes no sense without this. If we end up with a contrary view of man, we have again made a wrong turn somewhere.

So what do we make of the passage you quoted? First, we acknowledge there are many more passages. Second, it helps me to keep in mind that foreknowledge does not mean “caused.” You state this as well although not as clearly I think. God is outside time and not limited to before/after, He does not have to wait to know the outcome of any event or choice; He knows all of it at once.

Thanks again for your post.