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To: Boogieman
It is either one or the other by your criteria - either you reject randomness in nature - or you reject that God has foreseen (or predetermined, either will do fine) the outcome of these events.

So which is it?

What do you think is the difference? Do you think God has control of reality, or do you suppose God merely has foreknowledge?

The Bible says that the results of the casting of dice are “from the Lord” not just ‘known beforehand’ by the Lord.

126 posted on 02/12/2013 10:25:02 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: allmendream

“It is either one or the other by your criteria - either you reject randomness in nature - or you reject that God has foreseen (or predetermined, either will do fine) the outcome of these events.”

Those aren’t my criteria. You keep saying things, and attributing them to me, as if that magically makes it so, but I’m sorry to tell you it does not. Besides, as I just told you, foresight and predetermination are two different concepts and they are not interchangeable, especially as it applies to what we’ve been discussing.

One doesn’t have to reject randomness in nature in order to believe that God is able to know the outcome of random events. After all, God exists outside of time and space, so it is not sensible to say that He knows the outcome beforehand, or looks back and sees the results afterwards. He simply knows the outcome, since He can perceive all events throughout time and space. So, foresight, as it would apply to God, doesn’t violate the random nature at all.

Predetermination, on the other hand is different. For the random causes to result in a predetermined outcome, there must be some type of external control maintained over the seemingly random events. It doesn’t matter whether that control is applied throughout the process, or whether it happens before the processes are set in motion. It doesn’t even matter if God creates a billion universes until one randomly arises just the way He wants it, and then destroys the rest. In any case, the causes have now changed to deterministic ones, since they cannot produce anything other than the intended outcome.

As I’ve already conceded, it may well be that this is the case, but nonetheless, it is not a scenario that is within the bounds of naturalistic science or compatible with the standard ToE. So, while you seem to really enjoy lording it over the creationists, you are not standing on any moral high ground. You are right down there in the “anti-science” swamp alongside them.


128 posted on 02/12/2013 5:24:57 PM PST by Boogieman
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