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To: HarleyD; P-Marlowe
Not that God was sorry about His creation but the road to Calvery was just as hard on God as it was on us as difficult as that is to understand.

I agree that the road to Calvary was painful for God. I believe His grief is real where He says He grieved.

That does not change the difficulty in both the foreknowledge and the foreordination perspectives. One is difficult because of works and the other is difficult because of sin.

Most people today prefer to quibble over a bare touch of works righteousness than over God being the author of sin. Personally, I do not yet see a biblical explanation that eases the difficulties inherent in either view. That's one thing that makes me think we might be missing something.

687 posted on 02/02/2013 6:32:07 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe
That does not change the difficulty in both the foreknowledge and the foreordination perspectives. One is difficult because of works and the other is difficult because of sin. ...That's one thing that makes me think we might be missing something.

Perhaps but one has to admit the scriptures favors the latter. Paul verses "I will have mercy on who I will have mercy", "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", and the like now fits. Charges that were levy against Paul, "Are we to continue in sin...", "Why not do evil...", and the like are the exact charges Reformers get. All of these various issues indicate we are in line with the teachings and reasoning of Paul.

I'll tell you something that I've never shared. I've done a lot of research on this matter over the years. I've looked at history, read through the early writings, read through the Protestant confessions, looked at the different views posted here by Dr. SteveJ, Dr. E and the like as well as the counter views-many of which I held. There are bits and pieces of things that convinced me like the London Baptist/Westminster Confessions and the writings of Cyprian and Augustine.

But one of the most pronounced reasons why I am absolutely convinced the Reformers' perspective is correct is simply the reaction one gets from it. A beautiful gospel of God richly bestowing His grace and mercy on us perspective is absolutely hated. And you do not have to go very far to see this attitude-only a few posts back. But that's not the only place. While researching back I went to atheists sites, arminian sites, and just about every church site imaginable. Atheists while they doggedly accept evangelical, they absolutely hate Reformers. Now this has been about seven years ago but you could probably go out to their sites and see this blatant attitude. So does everyone else. People hate the gospel of grace. Billy Graham is a nice person. John MacArthur or John Piper not so much. So we are told. Now if it wasn't for the scriptural alignment, the historical context, the confessionals, etc., one has to wonder what on earth causes people to go simply bonkers about this view? Eastern Orthodox, Catholics and evangelicals, they might trade barbs with one another but at the end of the day you'll see them in some sort of ecumenical agreement. Reformers are simply crazy, evil and down right nasty people. PM is only beginning to get a taste of this.

If it wasn't for Cyprian's word to Augustine, just the sheer attitude would make me believe this IS the true gospel. It's not a popular message but it is the truth.

716 posted on 02/02/2013 2:30:11 PM PST by HarleyD
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