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To: CynicalBear; HarleyD; betty boop; metmom; Alamo-Girl; marron; stfassisi; xzins

FWIW your understanding of Calvinism appears to be at best superficial and at worst an example of kicking against the pricks.

I have used every one of the arguments that you have used on this thread to defend my firm belief in what is called Arminianism and my firm belief that somehow the Calvinist positions regarding unconditional grace were somehow “unfair” or “unjust” and that somehow it was the duty of God to treat all his creatures equally and fairly and that any decision of God that did not include a free will decision of men must on its face be evil or worse.

I had a slow change of heart and now I find myself much closer to the Calvinist theology than the Arminian construct. I have come to the realization that the Calvinist position is much more consistent with the entire bible and with all individual scriptures than the Arminian construct. When you study the entire bible with an eye towards what God has done with his creation you pretty much have to conclude that God has done with his creation pretty much everything he intended to do. Not even pretty much. God has done ALL that he intended.

I had my change of position when I decided to go on the Catholic threads and get into discussions of theology. I developed a clearer sense of my position when I argued with Catholics. Eventually I found myself taking the positions of the Calvinists which I had spent nearly a decade trying desperately to dispute.

I have read and studied numerous anti-Calvinist books by guys like Dave Hunt and others. I know every single argument against Calvinism and then some. But I tended to avoid positive works about Calvinism like Spurgeon’s Sermons on Calvinism, and Calvin’s own Institutes of Religion and his commentaries.

At some point I began reading Calvin’s works and listening to Sermons by Spurgeon and John MacArthur and Lorraine Boettner. The more I studied these men’s work the more I began to understand the doctrine which they were preaching. As I began to understand it more, my repulsion at the doctrine as I misunderstood it became softened and eventually I found that I was actually embracing many of the teachings of Calvin and Spurgeon and others.

Why don’t you try this experiment. Argue with an Arminian. Challenge an Arminian. Try learning enough about both sides that you are capable of debating both Calvinists and Arminians. Once you get to that point, I believe you will have a clearer understanding of both positions and your hatred of the idea of Calvinism will soften.


655 posted on 02/01/2013 11:08:41 AM PST by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: P-Marlowe; CynicalBear; HarleyD; betty boop; metmom; Alamo-Girl; marron; stfassisi; xzins
When you study the entire bible with an eye towards what God has done with his creation you pretty much have to conclude that God has done with his creation pretty much everything he intended to do.

After studying this issue for over two years, I decided to read the scriptures from cover to cover with the Reformed view in mind to see if these things were so. After that, the rest is history.

But one only needs to read the gospel of John to see how clear it becomes.

657 posted on 02/01/2013 11:32:06 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: P-Marlowe
How interesting that you “began reading Calvin’s works and listening” to Calvinistic preachers. No scripture listed just indoctrination.

I can debate Armenians and Calvinists and both at their extremes are in error. Bottom line is that Christ died for all and that the invitation goes to all. The fatalistic attitude that each man’s destiny is completely and totally out of his control is error or their would be no need for the directive to “go into all the world and preach the gospel”.

I don’t need to “study Calvinism” as I was raised in a Calvinist church. I totally understand the dangers of Calvinism. As well I have debated with those who believe that man can seek God which is also counter to scripture.

My view of Calvinism as expressed here on these threads will not “soften” as you say. After 35 years in that environment my view is not “superficial” and I rejected much of it. Thanks for the invite but I’ll pass.

686 posted on 02/02/2013 6:28:34 AM PST by CynicalBear
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