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Childish behavior |
Posted on 01/16/2013 8:57:49 AM PST by marshmallow
General audience, Benedict XVI defines the Incarnation as "something unimaginable, the face of God can be seen, the process that began with Abraham is fulfilled." The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, he asks "for the great gift" to "proclaim together that Jesus is the Savior of the world."
Vatican City (AsiaNews) - "The desire to know the face of God is in every man, even the atheists," but this desire is only realized by following Christ, in whom, in the Incarnation, "something unimaginable took place, the journey that began with Abraham is fulfilled. He is the Son, the fullness of all Revelation; the mediator who shows us the face of God. "
And "to proclaim together that Jesus is the Saviour of the world" Benedict XVI asked for incessant prayers for "the great gift" of Christian unity in the forthcoming week, which begins on the 18th of this month.
Previously, in his catechesis, he again reflected on the meaning of Christmas, in a commentary on John's Gospel in which the apostle Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. The answer of Jesus, "introduces us to the heart of the Church's Christological faith; For the Lord says: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9).This expression summarizes the novelty of the New Testament, the novelty that appeared in the cave of Bethlehem: God can be seen, he showed his face is visible in Jesus Christ".
The theme of "seeking the face of God" is present throughout the Old Testament, so much so that the Hebrew term "face", occurs no less than 400 times, 100 of which refer to God." The of Jewish religion which the religion forbids all images, "for God can not be depicted," and "can not be reduced to an object," tells us that "God...
(Excerpt) Read more at asianews.it ...
I hardly think that dictionary.com is promoting heresy in their definitions.
After the Holocaust, Sandy Hook, etc. the churches swell as people return to God for comfort and answers. I wouldn't so readily say this is a bad thing. In Amos 4 God tells us He bring calamity on people so that we will return to Him.
Now how can we argue with that when the evidence is so overwhelming.
Oh really? Wow!
>>I'm interested in knowing God.<<
Satan knows God. He even knows scripture very well.
You didn’t sound cheeky to me in the least. I just felt sorry for you in that attitude. That comment certainly didn't come off cheeky to me. Just sad.
2Ti 2:15-16 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
I think you missed the point that Harley was trying to make.
You need to be more thoughtful rather than responding with quick gotcha answers. It is clear to me exactly what Harley's point is. There will be many whose concern was centered on their salvation rather than knowing God who will be smugly standing before God to whom God will say "Depart from me, I never knew you!"
I think it is wise to spend your time and thought in knowing God rather than thinking about things like being saved, for without an intimate knowledge of God, your salvation is clearly tenuous.
Try looking at it from the following perspective from Blessed Aquinas that is backed up by Scripture
To solve this doubt, we must observe that though one can neither merit divine grace beforehand, nor acquire it by movement of his free will, still he can hinder himself from receiving it: for it is said of some: They have said unto God, 'Depart from us, we will not have the knowledge of thy ways' (Job xxi, 14). And since it is in the power of free will to hinder the reception of divine grace or not to hinder it, not undeservedly may it be reckoned a man's own fault, if he puts an obstacle in the way of the reception of grace. For God on His part is ready to give grace to all men: He wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. ii, 4). But they alone are deprived of grace, who in themselves raise an obstacle to grace. So when the sun lights up the world, any evil that comes to a man who shuts his eyes is counted his own fault, although he could not see unless the sunlight first came in upon him
Cynical Bear wrote: You didn’t sound cheeky to me in the least. I just felt sorry for you in that attitude. That comment certainly didn't come off cheeky to me. Just sad.
I don't think you know what "per se" means when used in such a sentence. [Latin, In itself.] Simply as such; in its own nature without reference to its relation.
In other words, in Harley's sentence it meant: "I'm not interested in salvation "without reference to its relation". He's interested in salvation in relation to God.
If salvation were WITHOUT GOD would that be AS APPEALING? I think not.
There is much to be understood:
I understood exactly what he was saying. It’s been the tenor of this entire thread and many other threads. The focus on “how God works” and “what God does”. The comment was made “I'm not interested in being saved per se”. Not interested in being saved per se?
Jesus suffered and died on the cross that we might be SAVED. Not that we might better understand how God works or know God. Scripture wasn’t written in such a way as to give us an intimate knowledge of the details of the workings or God or why God does things. It was written that we might be SAVED. The ultimate outcome that God wishes for us is that we might be SAVED. He sent His Son to live among us that we might be SAVED. Nearly every passage in scripture is given that we might be SAVED.
>>You need to be more thoughtful rather than responding with quick gotcha answers.<<
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
>> There will be many whose concern was centered on their salvation rather than knowing God who will be smugly standing before God to whom God will say "Depart from me, I never knew you!"<<
Like I said. Satan and all the angels who rebelled with him know God and how He works. After all, they were with Him and saw Him before they rebelled.
The Israelites knew God and who He is. Still they turned away from Him. Scripture tells of many who knew God but are not saved. There is only one way to really know God and that is through salvation first. We are then given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we might better know God. It’s not the other way around. The entirety of scripture is written that we might be saved and thereby know God.
Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The correct knowledge of God is not given until there is salvation. Trying to know God without first seeking salvation is man’s way, not God’s.
Ephesians 3:17-19 NKJV that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— (19) to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
That knowledge is not given until AFTER salvation.
Certainly not at the level of scripture, indeed! And let us mention that marron contributed two absolutely splendid chapters to the effort. This was a real "FReeper collaboration," you might say!
One motive for writing the book was to help Christians to stop feeling "outclassed" in debates with the metaphysical-materialist evolutionists out there, and scientific reductionists in general.
For as you stated so well, dearest sister in Christ:
Truly, I believe that God the Father has revealed Himself in four ways: 1) through the Person of Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, 2) through the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit, 3) through Scripture, His words and 4) through His Creation both physical and spiritual.The beautiful insight is, none of these revelations contradict each other in any way! Rather, they "reinforce" and complement each other.
But if one is looking for something more closely scripturally based, I highly recommend this book: which is a detailed exegesis of the Lord's Prayer, directly from scripture. Of course, dearest sister in Christ, you wrote this one "solo!"
FRiends, it is magnificent!
Both works were a labor of love.... We weren't in it to make money. (And we certainly haven't! LOL!)
To God be the glory, not man, never man. His name is I AM.
I find this a remarkable statement. Why would man hinder himself from grace? If one is face with a choice between heaven and hell, unfetter by everything around him so that he is capable of making a rational decision between going the heaven or going to hell, then why would they choose hell? Personally, I don't know of anyone who sat down and "rationally" decided one way or the other. And I would say this includes Adam. Do you believe Adam made a rational decision? This certainly doesn't fit into the gospel experience.
As far as Aquainas's text (Job 21:14), please not the context of Job's speech:
Job 21:3 Bear with me, and I will speak, and after I have spoken, mock on.
Job 21:4 As for me, is my complaint against man? Why should I not be impatient?
Job 21:5 Look at me and be appalled, and lay your hand over your mouth.
Job 21:6 When I remember, I am dismayed, and shuddering seizes my flesh.
Job 21:7 Why do the wicked live, reach old age, and grow mighty in power?
Job 21:8 Their offspring are established in their presence, and their descendants before their eyes.
Job 21:9 Their houses are safe from fear, and no rod of God is upon them.
Job 21:10 Their bull breeds without fail; their cow calves and does not miscarry.
Job 21:11 They send out their little boys like a flock, and their children dance.
Job 21:12 They sing to the tambourine and the lyre and rejoice to the sound of the pipe.
Job 21:13 They spend their days in prosperity, and in peace they go down to Sheol.
Job 21:14 They say to God, 'Depart from us! We do not desire the knowledge of your ways.
Job 21:15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? And what profit do we get if we pray to him?'
Job 21:16 Behold, is not their prosperity in their hand? The counsel of the wicked is far from me.
These are the wicked. Those people who have no desire to serve God. They do not answer the external call of God so there is no internal call. I believe Aquinas completely misread this section of Job. I would suggest comparing against Paul's writings:
1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
1Co 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
I would have liked to have heard an explaination from Aquinas on 1 Cor 1:28. Had he been an Augustinian and not a Dominican he might have done better. Perhaps it was his nickname "Dumb Ox" that stigmatized him. :O)
Well, I think some have proven that last statement to be true.
Might I suggest a careful study of Psalms 119? I was going to post it but it is rather long. Yes, it's not about Christ's salvation but I think it might be useful information.
Why would a married pastor have sexual relations with a member of his church? Why would a priest molest a small boy? It’s called “choice”, what some would call “free will”, others would call “permissive will”. It seems to be something that Calvinists deny.
If people were staring hell in the face as it were, I doubt anyone would choose it. But people have been convinced or have convinced themselves that not only is hell not real, but for the most part, that the supernatural isn't real. Or at least God. Many still believe in magic and forces, etc.
People have been deceived about what they're really rejecting and accepting, and choosing.
That's why they resist grace, because they don't really realize the full consequences of their decision.
Rationalizing has nothing to do with it anyway.
Might I suggest you re-read my post. You will find that I stated that I stated that we will be given the knowledge of God after we are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
That was in response to your statement “I'm not interested in being saved per se.” You said “I'm interested in knowing God”. Knowing God is useless unless you are first saved and knowing God does not save you. The priorities of your statement were totally backwards.
You pointed me to Psalm 119 but you neglect to mention that first of all that was prior to Christ’s death and resurrection and secondly that the writers intent was clearly stated in verse 17
Psalm 119:17 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
Until Christ’s death and resurrection they were under the law, we are not but are under grace. They were saved by following the law. We are saved by faith in Christ. Their salvation was external until Christ’s death, our is internal with a change of our heart and faith.
No one has ever been saved by following the Law. That is the whole point of the Gospel. Those saved prior to Christ have been saved solely by Grace. Salvation by Grace is not a new system. The Law condemns all because all have broken it.
Can you name one person in the Bible that you think might have been saved by following the Law?
The other book would never had made it to print were it not for your extensive participation, dearest sister in Christ! Indeed, both of you are in that one as well.
A couple of thoughts on points raised, dear brother HarleyD, and dear sister metmom:
(1) Hell is very, very real. And we humans make it for ourselves, both in this world and especially in the next.
(2) Folks might want to reject all and everything pertaining to the "supernatural" (as they define it, a slippery slope right there...).
(3) BUT — you can do that all day long until you're blue in the face, but you will never be able to "prove" that the "natural" does not have a "supernatural" origin.
(4) And if you look to the history of the human race, to the perennial wisdom about the human condition and human relations to the natural and social orders of human experience, captured over seven millennia by now, by my count — and everybody is still asking the same questions after all this time!!! — one surmises that the universal human record, at least in the cultural West, attests to a supernatural cause of the natural, visible world.
(5) This cultural understanding is no longer taught in the "progressive" public schools. Leave that for another time, if ever. Suffice it to say "Public Education" has totally succeeded at making the public stupid, ignorant of their own living past, their traditions and — may I daresay? — their living Constitution? All the same....
(5) The only way God can't "get through to you" is if "you don't let Him."
I gather this is the essential point of human free will: One must choose — to either "let" Him, or "refuse" Him.
'Cause we can't get there — to truth, to eternal life — absent personal witness of the Glory of God (which we were made for, in His image, in the beginning.
Yet we ourselves, by our own merits or resources, cannot ever "bridge the chasm" between mortality and immortality without the full, humble acknowledgement of our total, personal dependence on the Sacrifice of Christ, without welcoming the Holy Spirit of God to abide with us, to light the path set before us....
Living in the law and righteousness of God was the "once for all" divine opportunity that Adam failed to live up to.... That failure indelibly marks our soul with a stain that cannot ever be removed by our own efforts; such cannot happen other than by a confession of faith to our Savior, Lord Jesus Christ — to "take His yoke upon us, and learn from Him."
Who also just happens to the the divine Word of the beginning, the Logos, Son of God, Alpha to Omega.
I stand in witness thereto.
And now I will put a sock in it....
God bless you, dear metmom and anyone else who is reading these lines!
Dear metmom, sister in Christ — thank you ever so much for your splendid, evocative essay/post!
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