that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther
Posted on 01/12/2013 9:45:29 AM PST by count-your-change
Luther’s comments? LOL! Luther had NOTHING AT ALL to do with that canticle.
That is the Canticle of the Blessed Virgin Mary from the Catholic Bible.
It is also know as the Song of Mary
And, obviously, people are ignorant about the details in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, that detail the stories of the apostles being bi-located to Mary’s bedside as she was dying.
Or their accounts of the Assumption of her body into heaven.
There is the point...That which was recorded provides sufficiently for us to have faith and understand our role in God’s purposes.
Would what is unrecorded be very different from the Scriptures? Or would it would act as a further witness to what we do have?
The question is not whether the things unrecorded were important or not but whether they are necessary to us and why if these unrecorded events are necessary to us why the holy spirit skipped over them.
Human tradition has tried to fill in what God chose to leave unrecorded and hence the false gospels and frauds like the infancy stories of Jesus.
A lack of faith in God and His Word has caused false doctrines like the assumption of fleshly bodies into heaven even tho the Scriptures inspired by God say otherwise, to be accepted as truth, dogma, yea, “infallible dogma” because it fits a structure willing to murder to preserve its self. Just as the Pharisees were willing to kill Jesus and Lazarus lest, “the Romans take away our place and our nation”.
Ponderous in deed.
From your reply: “Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)”
And the question remains as to what this has to do with the subject at hand.
So you are using your personal judgement to criticize another judgement you don’t agree with as “unnecessary”, and equating it to a lack of faith in God his word?
Last I heard “count-your-change” was given sole ownership of scriptural authority, or discernment of the Holy Spirits intentions, or God like knowledge of the hearts of other Christians, so worry about your salvation. I’m pretty sure you aren’t perfect yet. I also humbly suggest that you stay away from “churches” that define themselves on how others are wrong. The message of salvation is love, Condemning other Christians is not a sign of “belonging to Him”. God bless.
So, we’re back to praising Luther for his more Catholic tendencies now, are we?
The pendulum will swing wildly back somewhere on FR before the day is out, lol.
You guys do have a major case of unrequited love going on when it comes to ol’ Martin.
Perhaps 'weasel words' is a bit inflammatory... But the 'real error', as you put it, is in lending any credence whatsoever to what is basically a fairy tale, even with a statement as ambiguous as it is. You'll have to excuse me, but this is a pet peeve of mine: There are whole fields of doctrine... massive edifices... built upon what is the historical equivalent of a schoolyard rumor. This is *not* a sure foundation!
I don't know what textual evidence, if any,m exists prior to the 4th century.
I would highly recommend some research. Believing something just because everyone else does is not faith, it's herd mentality.
I'm not sure, though, whetherthe Pope relied on extual evidence. I think, for him, the lack of relics, or even any claim of relics --- considering the intense ongoing interest in objects of veneration --- seems to have been the clincher. Form earliest days, nobody even thought it was possible to have relics of Mary. If they had, the forgers/bone-vendors would have been there as quick as you can say "Beatissima".
LOL! That cannot be what one bases the assumption of Mary on! The LACK of evidence is evidence? This is PRECISELY why YHWH buried Moses where no one would find him - For this exact reason! This is why the serpent on the standard was destroyed! Can't you see? Perhaps in keeping with what He has done in the past, He saw fit to keep Mary from the gruesome desires of the bone diggers! Keep her from being paraded around piece-by-piece and lauded in front of vast crowds of idiots. Perhaps He meant to keep her from the DNA experts who would no doubt find some relation suitable to sit upon David's throne! But *NONE* of that points to assumption.
So what, Luther was also a Catholic priest.
I don’t follow Luther and what does this have to do with the subject of the thread?
Thanks for your encouragement — but I think you are jesting. And almost in a personal put-down sort of way.
God bless you anyway.
I’m under the impression that the mods don’t look upon vain repititions kindly. Seems I recall scripture along those lines, too. Perhaps the Douay-Rheims renders it differently?
Just a point to ponder.
Originally we were all Catholics, or Orthodox, if you ask their church, who I cant tell the difference, betwen their mass or a Catholic mass.
Martin Luther was the first Protestant. He dissented from the church. Since then it has been a free for all where now even Lutherans are now officially welcoming homosexual pastors. The thousands of denominational and non denominational churches that resulted from Luthers dissent, are so diverse in their beliefs, that there is no complete list. Any Tom, Dick or Harry or ex con can set up shop, call themselves Alpha Omega, and call themselves,a church. They are accountable to no one, and it’s miracle more people haven’t fallen prey to these cults. Do you really believe tradition the problem with society these days?
Now that you’ve expressed your dislike for my comments you might try explaining why that dislike makes anything I said not so.
No, I don’t take it personally, but it’s a bit like tearing up a message because you don’t like the paper it’s written upon. (I trust I need not explain that).
Well, we really weren't discussing the problems of society at large, at least I wasn't.
You're correct that since Luther's time splits and off shoots have occurred and of course anyone can set up a tent and find some following.
In practice every Catholic bishop is a law unto himself, I say in practice, officially otherwise, as we've seen in the U.S., some welcoming and protective of homosexual priests and others not so much.
“Martin Luther was the first Protestant”
Luther was not the first protester or reformer in the Catholic church. For at least five hundred years before him Popes and Bishops had tried to curb the worst abuses with decrees and pronouncements to no avail. (Recall the Book of Gomorrah, aptly named).
But as Jesus parable of the weeds and wheat made clear there would be a long period of time while the two grew together until their fruitage became distinguishable and then the harvest would begin, separating one from the other not on the basis of tradition and unrecorded deeds and sayings but upon the basis of adherence to the truth of God's word we do have. (John 4:23)
no...
she was “deemed” into heaven
*couldn’t resist*
I already explained my opinion. Think what ever you want. Your entitled to believe whatever you want. To turn around and claim the beliefs of christians that don’t align with yours are wrong, and that the “Holy Spirit” himself discarded our traditions, and claiming they are “unnecessary” and “lacking of faith in God” and “His word”’ is a little arrogant. It actually encompasses the reason why God gave us our church, our traditions, and an ultimate authority. Because the ability of men to rationalize ANYTHING, is,limitless.
So as the media is out portraying christians as those loonies from Westborough Babtist “church”’ you have a problem with our Catholic traditions? Really?
God Bless.
Yes, you have expressed your opinions. Thank you and good night.
“So why is such a false idea so vigorouly defended?”
ROTFLMAO< try instead:
So why is such a basic Christian TRUTH so vigorouly attacked?
So tell us, are you part of the Millerite heresy? Sunday worship is bad? Or one of the few goofball sects that says:
“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”
“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”
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