D,
We agree that all saints of all time are alive.
We even agree that all saints of all time should pray (I think we agree).
We do not agree that saints up above watch us or are aware of what we are doing. They may or may not. Scripture does not tell us this.
We also see absolutely no evidence during the 1st 100 years of the Church that any Christian prayed to saints. As such, it was not part of Apostolic Tradition.
We also see no Scripture that commands or encourages saints down here to pray to saints up there. Why? If this is important for His Church, why didn’t God the Father command it? We are commanded to do all kinds of very important things.
There is no evidence that any Apostle prayed to any saint up above. The Apostle Paul watched the martyrdom of Steven, but there is no evidence that Paul prayed to anyone but God Himself.
No evidence that Peter or any other Apostle prayed to a saint above. Why?
We find no historical document (that I have found through research) before the late second or early third century that sees this happening. Why?
If this practice is a part of the Church - the Church that Christ founded - why don’t the Apostles - or even one Apostle - mention, command or instruct the Church to do so?
Because none of these things are evident, I can only conclude the origins of this practice are outside the Church and are totally unimportant - probably irrelevant.
Now, I don’t write any of that to get you or anyone else to change their mind. Many do not want to deal with those issues. I do. I want to do what is commanded of me - to study to show myself approved, rightly handling the Word of Truth.
In the end, so much has accreted to the practice of the Church that has no foundation in truth, that it takes work to cut it away.
In any case, if you have historical or Biblical evidence of any of the above, I am open, as we all should be. That also means I am open to disagreeing with that which is neither Biblically based, nor evident in the early teaching of the Apostles during their lives. Beyond that, cats have wondered into the Church and should be shooed out.
Kindest Regards
That helps, thanks.
I think the Hebrews scripture and Revelation scripture show that the Saints are aware. And they are alive, aware and concerned and praying/interceding.
As for as being required or commanded, no; as for it being assumed, recommended, asked for, a good and pleasing thing yes - particularly when we do not try to make a, false IMHO, separation between Saints in the Church Militant and Church Triumphant. It is only if we separate the Body of Christ that any possible conflict can occur - or the questions you ask can arise.
As for history of the practice: Of course, the longer the Christian Church exists, the more Saints there are, the more the practice as it concerns Christian Saints in Heaven increases. The great majority of Saints in Heaven were not even born when Holy Scripture was recorded.
Also, here’s a couple of quotes from the early Church that apply:
Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
thanks again...