Posted on 12/30/2012 9:28:32 AM PST by narses
"And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living," Matt 22:32.
At the Transfiguration, the souls of long-dead Moses and Elijah appeared alongside Jesus. "And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him." Matt 17:3. How could Moses and Elijah "talk" with Jesus if they were "asleep"? Their souls were alive and awake. The fact that the Bible shows Moses and Elijah "talking" with Jesus conclusively disproves your friend's idea that souls are "dead" or "asleep" until the general judgment.
Scripture shows that heaven’s inhabitants hear us, which they couldn't do if they were "dead." “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do His word, hearkening to the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all His hosts, His ministers that do His will!” Psalm 103:20-21. “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise Him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” Psalm 148:1-2. These verses would make no sense if those in heaven could not hear us.
Those in heaven not only pray with us, they pray for us and can present our requests to God. “When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints,” Rev. 5:8. “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel,” Rev. 8:3-4. These verses show (1) those in heaven have access to our prayers, and (2) those in heaven can offer our prayers to God. None of this would make any sense whatsoever if those in heaven were "dead" or "asleep."
Part of our spiritual inheritance under the New Covenant is access to the souls of the justified. “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS MADE PERFECT, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.” Heb. 12:22-24.
“In any case, it results in the refutation of such.”
Nope. Random cut-n-paste fails as a refutation. Sorry.
Here, I see your random quote and raise you:
But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Spiritually, we are seated in the heavenly realms IN Christ Jesus. Positionally, we are already there, we have our inheritance.
However, there is no mention of our ability while here on earth to communicate with anyone else who is also seated there on that spiritual plane.
God's word is jam packed with promises of God hearing and answering our prayers. There is no indication given anywhere that any other being is capable of that.
So even if the issue of whether others are alive in heaven were to be settled, it still does not address whether they have the ability to either hear or answer our prayer.
That contention is still without Scriptural support.
That is nice. Not what the Church teaches though. Sorry.
Those in heaven not only pray with us, they pray for us and can present our requests to God. “When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints,” Rev. 5:8. “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel,” Rev. 8:3-4. These verses show (1) those in heaven have access to our prayers, and (2) those in heaven can offer our prayers to God. None of this would make any sense whatsoever if those in heaven were “dead” or “asleep.”
Yeah, I know But it's what the Bible teaches.
Nope, that is how a few misread Holy Writ.
Those in heaven not only pray with us, they pray for us and can present our requests to God. “When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints,” Rev. 5:8. “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel,” Rev. 8:3-4. These verses show (1) those in heaven have access to our prayers, and (2) those in heaven can offer our prayers to God. None of this would make any sense whatsoever if those in heaven were “dead” or “asleep.”
Even if that were the case, it does not justify the teaching that we are to pray TO them for anything. It gives no indication as to how those prayers came to their attention.
Just get over it already... For by grace you have been saved by faith... Grace gave you the Cross ... You now have to save yourself-
Well, then, could you post the Scripture verses that command us to pray to anyone but God?
Or those that even permit us to pray to anyone but God?
You can't do both. Either I am saved by faith or I save myself
But nobody CAN save themselves.
The only one who can forgive a debt is the one to whom it is owed. The good works that I do or try to do cannot pay the penalty I owe for my sin, which is death.
There is no way to have the record of debt I owe God for my sin canceled except that it be forgiven by Him.
And when He forgives, it's forgiven.
Psalm 103:12 .... as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
Col 4:3
At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.
Rom 15:30
... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
Jam 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord
But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.
Just relax and realize that Jesus loves everyone who loves him. It is a big family in heaven.
So who is this Gamera and what credentials?
I’m not unrelaxed.
What are your credentials? And are you still claiming that Christmas and Easter are pagan? That worship on Sunday is not scriptural? Hmmmm?
I suppose the people Paul was writing to here were actually in heaven as well then? How about believers who are instructed to go “boldly before the throne”? Are they actually transported into heaven? Are they all spiritually in heaven?
If they are spiritually in heave along with those who have died why do Catholics need to pray to Mary and the saints to get a better chance of being heard by God if they are already “before the throne”?
So why does God bother with the Judgment, spoken of in Revelation, if the dead are already enjoying their reward?
Didn’t think that person had any. Just cut an past ey?
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