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To: Iscool; Campion
"If Jesus didn't have a natural birth, he didn't become human..."

Here your whole argument goes wrong, because your first premise is wrong. Christ was incarnate, became man, because of Mary being His natural mother. She was His genetic mother; she was His gestational mother; she was His birth-giving mother; she was His nursing mother. That's all natural.

The only part that was different from your birth and mine, was that his birth wasn't a grueling episode of blood and struggle, anguish and pain. And why? Because those were the curses consequent to the primordial sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, then Eve's childbirths would have been painless too. The pain in childbirth only came to human mothers marred by sin, i.e. all mothers, unless one be sinless.

"If Jesus was created with Mary's supposed supernatural nature, Jesus couldn't have become a Man..."

Mary didn't have a supernatural nature!!! She had a Plan A human nature, which is to say, human nature as it was originally intended to be, a nature in the original justice of Eden and the original innocense of Eve before sin marred her nature. Mary had a human nature full of grace.

"If Jesus did not have a natural birth, then Jesus was not begotten..."

He did have a natural birth, as natural birth was supposed to be: see above.

"If there was no birthing process, Jesus was created, not born..."

No, He was begotten, not made. His birthing process was a real birth -- in fact, a birth according to the original, Eden-grounded, pre-sin human nature -- involving no curse, no violence, no injury to the mother's body, no pain.

It's the Muslims who believe Jesus was created like Adam in the womb of Mary. Christians, on evidence of Scripture, say He was begotten, not made; and that Mary gave Him birth.

"If Mary could not have been tempted to sin since she had no original sin in her, neither could Jesus be tempted..."

False premise again. Nobody says Mary could not have been tempted. Mary (originally without sin) could have been tempted, just as Eve (originally without sin) was in fact tempted. But Eve succumbed to the temptation; Eve sinned; Mary didn't.

98 posted on 12/10/2012 6:31:18 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Point of correction.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Campion; Salvation
Mary didn't have a supernatural nature!!! She had a Plan A human nature, which is to say, human nature as it was originally intended to be, a nature in the original justice of Eden and the original innocense of Eve before sin marred her nature. Mary had a human nature full of grace.

So Mary was born without original sin...And what if Joseph had dreams telling him to remain or become celibate???

And you bury little idols in the ground to help you get a good price on your real estate...

How can you take your religion seriously, and even expect others to take it seriously after listening to you???

102 posted on 12/10/2012 7:20:16 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Just one point to add, not all births are as you describe, I had a friend that had 3 contrations and gave birth to her 5th...she was in the bathroom washing up and felt pressure, yelled at her husband to go get the next door neighbor. It didn’t take lone for him to run next door and when they got back home, she had given birth and was in bed with her newborn...She was the Vicar’s wife of a small church...there really are some strange births, there are some that are quite unusual...But the hymen is broken unless its a C Section which the Jews did not do...


151 posted on 12/11/2012 10:29:14 PM PST by goat granny
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