Did Mary have a bunch of kids? Mary's perpetual virginity before, during and after Jesus' birth

Catholic Bridge ^ | David MacDonald

[Alex Murphy]

God Himself established the spiritual significance of childbearing. He placed a curse on the woman's reproductive capacities, making this a sign of the ongoing reign of sin. "To the woman he said, "I will make great your distress in childbearing; in pain will you bring forth children." (Gen 3:16) It is a reasonable inference that if this reign of sin is ending, there will be signs of the lifting of this curse....

....Eve is to bring forth children by the pain and distress of her body; a counter-sign of this would be the Messiah's mother, the Kecharitomene, being free of bloody anguish in the wonderful conception and bringing forth of the Child who is Conqueror of sin and death.

Is it also reasonable to expect a baby to pass through the birth canal without breaking (ahem) certain bodily tissues that obstruct said passageway?

[metmom]

What’s with FR?

There are supposed to be 141 posts on this thread and every time I load the page, it only shows down through post 109 and just stops.

Nothing following, not even the usual bottom of the page stuff. I’ve never seen it do that before.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"He comes to make His blessings flow/ far as the curse is found."

What great things would He who is mighty not do for her?

Now I rather think a veil of modesty should be drawn across the more detailed questions of the Virgin's birth-giving. But He's called the one who opens and closes the womb. Is He or isn't He?

In this birth-giving God could give us a marvel, couldn't He?
He could pass through locked doors, couldn't He?

My dear spouse is a garden
altogether enclosed,
yea, a secret garden;
a spring altogether enclosed,
a well entirely sealed.
Song of Solomon 4:12
Wycliffe Bible

Christ told us on the road to Emmaus that the whole Old Testament is about Himself. (Luke 24:27)

In Hosea 9 the terrible curses on Ephraim are "No conception, no pregnancy, no births." The Savior wipes out curses. We know of the miracle of His conception. We know of the miracles during the pregnancy (a veritable white-water cascade of the Holy Spirit reported in Luke 1:39-45 --- Christ, Mary, Elizabeth, leaping joyful John!)

We have always rejoiced that the birth of the Messiah was accompanied by wonders.

Always. There's this:

"Sancta Maria Semper Virgine, ora pro nobis."
Written right on the walls of the catacombs.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Mine at 143.

[Natural Law]

"Is it also reasonable to expect a baby to pass through the birth canal without breaking (ahem) certain bodily tissues that obstruct said passageway?"

Is it "reasonable" for a virgin to conceive in order to give birth? Is it "reasonable" for many who come into contact with the person birthed by that virgin to be miraculously healed?

Peace be with you, Alex.

[Iscool]

It was not the Savior's intention to be born to, and therefore inherit the nature of, someone who was sin-scarred and inferior.

Fallacy...A Fantasy...Not one bit of scripture to back up your theory...In fact, quite the contrary...

Before the sin, Innocent Eve 1.0 had a sound, unflawed human nature.

Obviously she did NOT...She voluntarily, willingly sinned...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Perhaps I didn't make this clear enough:

1. Eve was flawless before sin, because she was created by God. She and Adam initially lived in Original Justice. This was the blessed state of Unfallen Humanity. They lived in Eden; they had fellowship with their Creator. Scripture says everything He created was good. This cannot be denied unless you say God created Adam and Eve evil, OR you deny that God was her Creator.

2. Eve used her beautiful, God-given gift (mind and will) in a wrong way, to do something wicked, thus disfiguring her previously good human nature. This is the state of Fallen Humanity. It is this fallen nature which is transmitted to us by inheritance.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Do you really think Mary's glorious, unprecedented, Archangel-announced title, "Kecharitomene," ("She who has been filled with grace,") means "Sin-scarred"?

Do you really thing the Angelic praise, "The Lord is with thee," means "You're drenched with sin"?

Do you really think "Thou has found favor with God" means "You're under a filthy curse?"

Are you really not familiar with these Scriptural definitions of who Mary is? "All generations will call me Blessed."

It was prophesied we would honor her this way, and we do.

To the honor and glory of God, her Savior and ours.

[Not gonna take it anymore]

Mrs. Don-o, you write such wonderful posts.

Thank you for your intelligent defense of our beautiful; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Every single day I thank God for making me Catholic. Easter Vigil 2008

[Zuriel]

**(”She who has been filled with grace,”)**

Mary was GIVEN favour (grace). She didn’t earn it, it was a gift from God. How do we know that? She tells us herself: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR. For he HATH REGARDED the LOW ESTATE of his handmaid.”

If Mary was without sin she didn’t need a saviour, and she wasn’t faced with death since she had no sin in her. Her ‘estate’ certainly wouldn’t have been ‘low’. Your teaching of the ark supposedly symbolizes Mary, covered with gold within and without; but the contents (manna, Aaron’s rod, and the tablets of stone) are NOT made of gold, but are to adequately symbolize the divine Christ. ?? No, not quite. The ark of the covenant symbolized the Christ and him only: Gold covering the wood within and without; the manna (our bread from heaven), the rod that budded (the resurrection and the life), the tablets of stone (the Judge).

I’ve seen and heard you folks promote the tale of Mary being born without sin, and that her mother was without sin as well. She had an earthly father. What about him? Could Mary have been born sinless having a father that was under the curse of sin? Or was he sinless as well? Why don’t we go back to her grandparents and say that they were also sinless? No, let’s play it safe and go back a few more generations.

**”Sin-scarred”?**
Yes, she was; along with everyone else.

**”You’re drenched with sin”**
Yes, she was; along with everyone else.

**”You’re under a filthy curse”**
Yes, she was; along with everyone else.

Turn up the volume (adjectives) if you prefer, but, the message is the same: If Christ died for all, then all were sinners. Mary was in the upper room to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.....she had to have it too. “If any man (or woman) have not the Spirit of God, he (she) is none of His”.

Don’t you find it odd, that in all of the epistles, There are no such teachings about Mary being sinless before the shedding of Christ’s blood? Nothing about remaining a virgin, never declared the ‘mother of God’ or ‘queen of heaven’? Nothing there, yet your organization stresses their teachings of Mary quite heavily, even trying to declare that the ‘woman’ in Rev. 12 is Mary (conveniently skipping verse 6), when it’s obviously speaking of Israel.

The Word says the the Christ child was Mary’s ‘firstborn’. That word...all...by...itself...leaves open the door for the possibility of other children.

So, go ahead a toss aside the phrase saying that Joseph ‘knew her not TILL’...Go ahead and interpret the visit of the Lord’s mother and his brethern....to be Mary and some distant kin. Disregard the words of the doubters of Jesus divinty, that said they knew his mother, his (half)brothers and (half) sisters. Oh, and the ‘brethern’ that told him to go in to Judea, that didn’t believe in Him (in John chap 7), but had earlier tagged along to the wedding at Cana..........thayzz jist cuzzins.

[goat granny]

Just one point to add, not all births are as you describe, I had a friend that had 3 contrations and gave birth to her 5th...she was in the bathroom washing up and felt pressure, yelled at her husband to go get the next door neighbor. It didn’t take lone for him to run next door and when they got back home, she had given birth and was in bed with her newborn...She was the Vicar’s wife of a small church...there really are some strange births, there are some that are quite unusual...But the hymen is broken unless its a C Section which the Jews did not do...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Mary was GIVEN favour (grace). She didn’t earn it, it was a gift from God. How do we know that? She tells us herself: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR. For he HATH REGARDED the LOW ESTATE of his handmaid.”

We absolutely agree on that.

If Mary was without sin she didn’t need a saviour, and she wasn’t faced with death since she had no sin in her.

She certainly did need a Savior: to keep her from sin. There are two ways to save a person from quicksand: to pull them out once they’re in it, or to prevent them falling in, in the first place. Our Lord did the latter for Mary, full of grace. It was always His grace that saved her.

Her ‘estate’ certainly wouldn’t have been ‘low’.

Of course it was. She is a mere human, a person created by God. Every creature is low in relation to the Infinite God. Mary is honest and humble enough to see that.

Your teaching of the ark supposedly symbolizes Mary, covered with gold within and without; but the contents (manna, Aaron’s rod, and the tablets of stone) are NOT made of gold, but are to adequately symbolize the divine Christ. ??

Yes, quite. Mary is the vessel, covered with gold within and without: in the image of one of the Messianic Psalms, “the queen standeth nigh on thy right side, in clothing overgilded with the gold of Ophir."(Psalm 49:9)

The contents of the Ark represent the Lord Messiah Himself, who makes miracles to sustain His people: the manna which sustained them physically, the Commandments which sustained them morally, the rod of Aaron, with which he subdued the Egyptians, symbol of the cross of Jesus, who conquered the world; and the rod also budded and brought forth leaves, flowers, and fruit, symbol of eternal life.

The contents of the Ark are holy, and stand for Christ; the Ark, which bears them, is govered with gold, and stands for Mary who bore Jesus: she is clothed with “the gold of Ophir,” in other words, pure and precious within and without.

Could Mary have been born sinless having a father that was under the curse of sin? Or was he sinless as well?

No, Mary was born of a human father and mother in the ordinary way. They were not preserved free of Original Sin, and would indeed have passed it on to her, except the Lord saved her from it in view of the fact that she was destined to be His mother.

This alone can explain why Mary calls God her Savior, and yet the Archangel calls her Kecharitomene, which means she was completely and fully filled with grace, at the beginning and continuing into the present --- which is what the past perfect passive participle form of the Greek verb, used nowhere else in the Bible, and in fact nowhere else in Greek literature, means. He protected her from the transmission of the effects of Original Sin, and yet she is Kecharitomene, full of grace from the beginning. This is a real, true Singularity. Never happened before, and has never happened since.

**”Sin-scarred”**

No, she's full of grace. I believe the Archangel..

**”You’re drenched with sin”**

No, the Lord is with her. I believe the Archangel.

**”You’re under a filthy curse”**

No, blessed is she among women. I believe the Archangel..

This I know. For the Bible tells me so.

[Mrs. Don-o]

152, above

[Mrs. Don-o]

My mother reported something similar. When she gave birth to my older brother Jim, it was a dreadful, fearfully long, painful hard, exhausting labor, on and off (more on than off) for 72 hours. After the birth, my atheist uncle Tom, visiting in the hospital, said she ought to get her tubes tied. She said, "No, I know I'll want another baby. I want a little girl."

Fast forward 2 1/2 years, she's in her first contractions with me. Father rushes her in the car to the hospital, up the steps (the hospital had steps then, in 1951), my mother slumps to the floor and --- in her words, I "slipped out like a peeled grape."

:o)

I gotta smile even now.

[NCLaw441]

I don’t know about any of this. As far as I know, there is no scriptural authority either way. I am not Catholic, so the Pope’s position, while perhaps persuasive, is not “binding” on me.

I tell my Sunday School class often that the Bible excludes lots of details, and that it may have been for very good reason. The teachings don’t need all of the details of the story. Often too many details provides the opportunity for many of us to say that the teaching does not apply to us.

For example, the rich young ruler story, if I recall correctly, ends with the young many walking away sadly after Jesus told him to sell all he had and give it to the poor (apparently because his wealth was too important to him). He walked away sadly, but we never know if he ever did in fact sell what he had, and what happened to him later.

Lazerus, raised from the dead by Christ, died again, I guess, but the Bible doesn’t say so, as far as I know.

Jesus’ birth was/is just as miraculous whether Mary later had other children the “normal” way. At least to me.

I will have lots of questions when I get to be in the presence of God. I can wait.

[Iscool]

It's a nice story...But that's all it is; a story...Nothing about it is biblical...

I wonder who concocted the story, and who later embellished it to what it is now...

This alone can explain why Mary calls God her Savior, and yet the Archangel calls her Kecharitomene, which means she was completely and fully filled with grace, at the beginning and continuing into the present --- which is what the past perfect passive participle form of the Greek verb, used nowhere else in the Bible, and in fact nowhere else in Greek literature, means. He protected her from the transmission of the effects of Original Sin, and yet she is Kecharitomene, full of grace from the beginning.

Well then how does anyone know what it means??? How does anyone even know that it's a real word??? And how did it get into the Catholic bibles???

This is a real, true Singularity. Never happened before, and has never happened since.

Well I'm happy to tell you that it HAS happened before...

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace

And the words for 'full of grace' are not the singularly used once in modern or ancient history, kecharitomene...

If the phrase 'full of grace' was in there, it would match the Greek words used in John 1:14...But it don't...So it ain't...

[allmendream]

Some people are a little too concerned about the hymen of the mother of our Lord.

What if it broke while riding a donkey? Would she no longer be as much of a virgin? It is ridiculous and a little TMI.

Good thing there wasn’t much else for the early church fathers to be doing of worth so that they could spend so much time and effort and ink thinking and writing about Mary’s hymen./s

[Mrs. Don-o]

"If the phrase 'full of grace' was in there, it would match the Greek words used in John 1:14...But it don't...So it ain't..."

Very true! And it's good of you to help me make that very point:

John 1:14 says that Jesus was plErEs charitos, which literally means "full of grace." (Those capital Es represent etas, so pronounce them like the e in "they"; it's pronounced PLAY-race).

Stephen at Acts 6:8 is also called plErEs charitos.

Luke 1:28 uses a different word derived from the same root (charitoo = grace) but says Kecharitomene, which literally means "woman who has been fully graced" (since the gender is female, the tense past perfect, and the voice passive: it's been done in the past for her.) AND it's used as a name or title, since it comes after the salutation "Chaire," "Hail". So it really is unique -- a Singularity, as I said. She's given a title nobody else was ever given: "Lady-Who-Has-Been-Filled-With-Grace."

"Full of grace" gets by as a shorthand way to say it, but looking at the construction of the feminine, past-perfect, passive, standing as a form of address, Kecharitomene gives you the whole delicious tasty goodness of it.

In one word, the Archangel says it all!

As a nominative, a form of address, a title, it has special resonance because whenever a person is addressed this way by God, it's always a big thing: it tells you who God says you are. This is what you were destined to be.

Abram --> Abraham, "Father of Nations"

Jacob --> Israel, "Wrestles with God"

Simon --> Peter, "Rock"

Mary --> Kecharitomene, "Lady Who Was Filled With Grace"

Although I have been so bold as to call this a Singularity, it has fairly wide congruences: Adam and Eve were actually in this state of grace, when they were living innocently in the Garden before they sinned; John the Baptist received this state of grace when he was filled with the Holy Spirit prenatally.

John the Baprtist received God's grace three months before his birth, in Elizabeth's womb; Mary received it nine months before her birth, in her own mother's womb. Grace is not something John the Fetus merited, nor anything Mary the Zygote merited (if I may call them such): it was all -- just like the grace you or I may have in our souls --- by the merits of Jesus Christ our Lord.

"He Who is Mighty has done great things for me."

John would add, "for me, when I was 6 months' gestation."

Mary would add: "for me, on Day One."

[RnMomof7]

Do you also believe she had a painless childbirth?

[RnMomof7]

Do you also believe she had a painless childbirth?