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To: annalex

I don’t see any specific saint called out for veneration in those quotes, hoss. And be very specific where any of the books of the New Testament call for us to specifically venerate Mary. Love to be shown this.


43 posted on 12/08/2012 10:39:06 PM PST by Liberty Tree Surgeon (Mow your own lawn!)
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon
And be very specific where any of the books of the New Testament call for us to specifically venerate Mary.

Bingo, LT. None can be found.

You'd think that an item of doctrine so essential to the Faith would be ubiquitous throughout the epistles of the New Testament.

46 posted on 12/08/2012 10:45:37 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon
I don’t see any specific saint called out for veneration in those quotes

There isn't any. The saints are venerated as an outpouring of love for them from the bosom of the flock. It is initially spontaneous. The Early Church considered friendship with Christ during his ministry on earth, or martyrdom for the faith sufficient proof of sainthood. Later, more formal methods came into use recognizing saints. but none of that had any specific form during the Apostolic times, and therefore the principles of venerating saints did not make it into scripture.

Individual acts of veneration can be seen in the scripture here and there. In Luke 11:27-28 someone venerates Mary, but does it with such a physiological focus "Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck" that Christ directs her attention to "all who hear the word of God, and keep it" Christ doesn't, however, repudiate the veneration of His mother in this episode. Similarly, in Acts 19:12 we read of veneration of the relics of the Apostles; at another time, the excessive veneration of the living apostles earns a rebuke when it crosses into worship (Acts 14:10, 13-14).

We also explicit endorsement of intercessory prayer in 1 Timothy 2:1, and we see Mary's advocacy before Christ and work on leading men to the faith in Christ in John 2:3,5. Of course, the general idea that saints are a part of our lives is simply in the knowledge that those who die in repentance and in faith have life everlasting, -- and again see Hebrews 11:39-40, 12:1-2.

58 posted on 12/09/2012 6:38:23 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon
I don’t see any specific saint called out for veneration in those quotes, hoss. And be very specific where any of the books of the New Testament call for us to specifically venerate Mary. Love to be shown this.

We're not to venerate ANY human being.

Those who knew better immediately denounced the veneration.

Those who didn't were *eaten by worms and died* (Herod - Acts 12).

James 2:1-11 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

70 posted on 12/09/2012 9:09:33 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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