Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
How do you know that? I do not worship a goddess; I venerate Mary and pray to her. Yes, she us a mortal human, -- that is the Catholic teaching.
It is generally a good idea to figure out what is it that you post about before you post. So, figure out what sainthood is, then post. Please. Both I and your readers are busy people and have no time for ignorant stupidities.
I learn my faith from the Holy Church, as Christ and his Holy Apostles tells me.
Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed [...] bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts Of Apostles 20:28)
It is generally a good idea to figure out something about the subject upon which you post, then make the post.
Huh?
pain is our friend
True.
Jesus was a fornicator? Who knew?
Your religion endorses it. Pederast priests who are never dealt with. Homosexuality within the priesthood. Annulments.
Don't whine at me about my *religion*.
I'll ask you the same questions I asked someone else....
Suppose someone made a satanist vow before becoming a Christian? Would you demand they remain a faithful satanist their entire lives simply because they took an oath or made a vow?
And of course, expecting the worst since it seems to be served up with regular predictability, the point is about making and breaking vows not about any comparisons between the two groups.
But I do not trust that someone will not try to make it about that to avoid answering the real question, which is, whether you would condemn someone for breaking a satanist vow or demand that they be held in bondage to that vow their entire lives? After all, a vow is a vow.
I agree with you that one cannot summarily accuse former Catholics of ignorance. It should depend on the post and specific instance of ignorance. This being said, I see plenty of it.
His "wife" left it hidden in a barrel. Neither was free to marry.
Really?
Surely the English Reformation started because Henry VIII could not keep his pants zipped; Luther supported bigamy too? Tell us more.
A human with Godlike powers which has no Scriptural support but is given by the RCC.
Right...
It is generally a good idea to figure out what is it that you post about before you post. So, figure out what sainthood is, then post. Please. Both I and your readers are busy people and have no time for ignorant stupidities.
I'm sure GeronL knows quite well what a saint is. Do YOU?
Scripturally, a saint is a believer in Christ. Not someone special the RCC has canonized, making the RCC respecters of persons, which is a sin according to the book of James, the Catholics favorite book of the Bible considering how much they quote it and defend it.
Vows to Satan are null; vows to Christ are not. This is true even if a vow is made outside a Catholic context. Thus, Protestant marriages are valid and one defecting from a marital or monastic obligation undertaken in a Protestant setting is committing a fornication, just as bad as Luther, your Founding Jerk.
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Where is the Catholic church mentioned in that passage?
He was speaking to the elders at Ephesus here. (v 17)
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
There appears to be a significant difference in what Catholics refer to as *the faith* and *faith*.
*The Faith* is often used as to be interchangeable with Roman Catholicism.
Biblical faith is * the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen* (Heb 11:1)
And so, while you have to be taught Catholicism, the rest of the world comes to faith by hearing the Word of Christ.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
In St. Paul's usage, indeed we cannot discern a more narrow meaning. However, in the practice of the Church, saints are those who by their works of faith became an example of others; to them we direct intercessory prayers. They do not have godlike powers though. You can pray to anyone who dies a good death and you personally believe them to be in the company of Christ. The canonized saints are those who the Church believes to be a good example of faith to others, but you may pray to any saint, -- this is how veneration of any saint starts.
I learn my faith from the Holy Church, as Christ and his Holy Apostles tells me.
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Where is the Catholic church mentioned in that passage?
He was speaking to the elders at Ephesus here. (v 17)
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
There appears to be a significant difference in what Catholics refer to as *the faith* and *faith*.
*The Faith* is often used as to be interchangeable with Roman Catholicism.
Biblical faith is * the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen* (Heb 11:1)
And so, while you have to be taught Catholicism, the rest of the world comes to faith in Christ by hearing the Word of Christ.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Not necessarily Roman, Catholicism as a whole, including the Eastern Orthodox. We can of course speak of Protestant faith, but it is a crippled remnant of the True Catholic Faith.
How very telling.
And what an indictment against the Catholic church.
They were saved, forgiven, new creatures in Christ, not subject to the bondage of this world any longer. They were free to do whatever they pleased, and if the Catholic church didn't or doesn't like it, it can go pound sand.
Catholicism ≠ Christ.
A vow to the Catholic church ≠ a vow to Christ.
Thus, Protestant marriages are valid and one defecting from a marital or monastic obligation undertaken in a Protestant setting is committing a fornication, just as bad as Luther, your Founding Jerk.
Luther isn't my founding anything.
Read this carefully and I'll type really slowly so you can maybe understand.
I . d o . n o t . f o l l o w . L u t h e r . o r . a n y . o t h e r . h u m a n . b e i n g.
H e . d i d . n o t . f o u n d . m y . c h u r c h . . . I . d o n ' t . k n o w . t h a t . h e . f o u n d e d . a n y . c h u r c h.
Why? A vow is a vow.
Besides, when the RCC makes people take vows, it is disobeying Jesus' own command thus invalidating the vow since the people did it in ignorance with deceit on the part of the Catholic church.
Matthew 5:36-38 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.
So just like any sin, in this case taking an oath, if they confess it, it is forgiven of them.
The RCC, claiming to be the representation of Christ on the earth, has no business demanding that people act in direct disobedience to the clear command of Christ. That is in essence, forcing people to sin because I can sure bet those people weren't told about Jesus' teaching on oaths or vows.
That means the vow was made under false pretenses and it invalidates it.
I’ll pray only to God as Jesus taught us, thank you.
No need to waste time praying to dead people who can’t help me in disobedience to Jesus’ teaching.
I sin enough. I don’t need to add more to it.
Thank you for your explanation, Salvation. A counter argument would necessarily be "If Jesus needed a pure womb to be pure, then so would have Mary."
However, your answer is the first time I've ever been given an answer to my question. Thank you very much for that.
And, since it is the first time I've received an answer, then I'll take time to reflect on it until I rely on a quick, brash response to a very well-meaning, longtime Christian FRiend.
Obviously what historical fact is being denied by you is that Luther was married, with both parties never having been married before, and which Scripturally was a marriage.
Thus your charge against them is technically adultery, but which presupposes physical adultery takes place when one denies a vow he made to stay single (Luther himself had been released from his Augustinian vows by Johann von Staupitz, as the head of the order, but that likely did not absolve him of his vow of chastity according to Rome).
(Also, contrary to the charge or inference that he left Rome in order to have sex are his writings prior to that in which he said at that time that he had no intent to marry, and which only occurred some years after his excommunication.)
Thus what we deny is that Luther and Kathrina were necessarily bound by the vows they made at that time. In Scripture vows that God confirms must be kept (but not a "Herod's vow"), yet religious vows made as an unbeliever are not necessarily binding, and as we see it both Luther and wife were no more born again when they made their vows than a Muslim is.
And as in Scripture lifelong vows of clerical celibacy are not required, and even if one marries after making a vow of celibacy then they are married, then the charge of fornication does not apply.
That they were living in adultery rests upon the premise that Rome has the power to bind such to celibacy, which premise is what we deny, and thus is the real issue.
I am typing this on a laptop which for me is even slower than normal, so i am being somewhat brief.
Fine. You go ahead and follow *the faith* (aka the Church) and I will follow Jesus through faith.
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