What do you then call the Mormon narrative of baptizing the dead?
Let's assume for a moment that this narrative tracks reality...I know that's a long stretch...but stay with me here.
Mormonism claims that when we die, we ALL initially go to the same Spirit World. We're supposedly ghettoized there, of course. The good Mormons will allegedly eternally "progress" out of there toward the two higher kingdoms; and basically honest religious people can still make the middle kingdom.
Anyway, Lds believe that Lds spirit missionaries (yes spirit missionaries) will visit the non-Mormons in this spirit world...at least they'll visit those who have had a proxy baptism done on earth on their behalf.
Now the vocab won't be "convert or die"...but the bottom-line net effect of their "offer" is exactly that.
Either you as a spirit in spirit prison in the spirit world convert to Mormonism then and there...or you will spiritually die by risking continued alienation from the Mormon jesus and perhaps even risking outer darkness...which, tho, is usually reserved in Mormonism for Mormons who apostatize and demons.
I mean, c'mon Ouderkirk. If somebody put you in prison, and told you the only way out was to convert to their religion, what kind of a so-called "choice" is that?
Quoted “The bottom line here is that mormons have not offered those who do not share their faith the choice of a)conversion or b)death.”
C “What do you then call the Mormon narrative of baptizing the dead?”
We don’t give the option of Death...
It was just too fun to say! (forgive me for a sense of humor!)
C “Let’s assume for a moment that this narrative tracks reality...I know that’s a long stretch...but stay with me here.”
C “Mormonism claims that when we die, we ALL initially go to the same Spirit World. We’re supposedly ghettoized there, of course. The good Mormons will allegedly eternally “progress” out of there toward the two higher kingdoms; and basically honest religious people can still make the middle kingdom.”
Boy do you have that wrong, but go on...
C “Anyway, Lds believe that Lds spirit missionaries (yes spirit missionaries) will visit the non-Mormons in this spirit world...at least they’ll visit those who have had a proxy baptism done on earth on their behalf.”
Again, BZZT! Wrong!
C “Now the vocab won’t be “convert or die”...but the bottom-line net effect of their “offer” is exactly that.”
C “Either you as a spirit in spirit prison in the spirit world convert to Mormonism then and there...or you will spiritually die by risking continued alienation from the Mormon jesus and perhaps even risking outer darkness...which, tho, is usually reserved in Mormonism for Mormons who apostatize and demons.”
Third Strike and you’re out! (Stop teaching Mormonism long enough to learn it, OK?)
C “I mean, c’mon Ouderkirk. If somebody put you in prison, and told you the only way out was to convert to their religion, what kind of a so-called “choice” is that?”
OK, Let’s start at death.
You’ve got Paradise and Spirit Prison, you die you go to one or the other.
What determines that? your conscience which isn’t gonna lie for ya.
Those in Paradise can go on missions to to spirit prison, they teach everybody the Gospel, there will be many who won’t accept/believe it.
Baptism, being an ordnance of the flesh is performed by living people in proxy for the dead who may, or may not be waiting for it.
The dead choose whether or not to accept the ordinances performed for them, some will reject it and it might as well not have happened, accept that we have been commanded to do it and give them the choice.
Jesus does not come into the picture until the final judgement See Revelations 20:11-15 http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rev/20.11-15?lang=eng#10
When men are judged out of the book of life according to their works. (It’s in the bible, don’t get mad at me)
Outer darkness, Satan will be cast there, and only those who chose him over God will join him, Cain for example. The number who “qualify for this is really small like five or less out of the whole world. Even Hitler does not qualify, We’re talking a really exclusive club that you don’t want to join here.
There are three main kingdoms, not two. the kingdoms have many sub kingdoms (my fathers house, many mansions... sound familiar?)
As for the Ordinances for the dead, if we’re wrong, then who cares! we’re wasting time doing useless work in temples you don’t want to enter anyway and staying off the street doing less missionary work, it’s a win- win for you!
There, Tried to fix it, but WOW! let us tell people what we believe... please?
Delph