The Vatican on Gaza: Israel is a Baby-Killer”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162368#.UK1RQ4arqSo ^ | 11/21/2012 | Giulio Meotti

[Lera]

Not a word was heard from the Vatican all the years Sderot babies were in mortal danger. They began noticing the violence last week.


Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, President of the Vatican Council for Culture, commenting on the war between Israel and Hamas, delivered a severe attack on the Jewish people: “I think of the ‘massacre of the innocents’. Children are dying in Gaza, their mothers’ shouts is a perennial cry, a universal cry”.


The Catholic Church high official equated Israel’s operation in Gaza against terror groups with the New Testament story of Herod’s slaughter of Jewish babies in his effort to kill Jesus.

[BlueDragon]

Asked of you; "Can you say why the Cardinal mentioned Gaza at all in his speech?"

Your replyNo, but apparently you and a half a dozen others claim to know.

If you cannot say why the Cardinal (unfortunately!) mentioned Gaza , then how can you say there is a "shameless defense of an entirely shameful assertion" particularly when you are not specifying what that "assertion" is? This sort of lack of specificity helps derail the conversations into murky jaunts, besides being illogical on it's face.

By which I mean, that although I myself have attempted to provide wider context, I can see how the mention could more than ruffle feathers, too. Historical context, and all of that...for what comes to mind to most isn't Ratzinger's historical which Ravasi had in mind and spoke of, clumsily mentioning Gaza.

Please, try to see more than one myopic side of things, FOR A CHANGE. thnx.

[BlueDragon]

Wait...why answer "no" when scrolling up just a little, upon review can be seen in #218

In his remarks he mentioned the world into which Jesus was born and that those human conditions are still present and His message is still relevant.

Ok. I see that, and much agree. Yet can't we see how, particularly in light of this dreadful article, the meanings could be honestly misunderstood?

As far as the rest of the editorial/polemical stuff --why? No. this is not an invitation to repeat the same sort of "how bad, and how much protestants are such ignorant haters" and all ---we've heard that only several hundred times by now.

How 'bout just sticking with careful unraveling of the misunderstandings? Ravasi's comment DID come at an inopportune juncture otherwise. Historical speaking, and in regards to the present human condition.

How would Israeli Jews know of previous Vatican pronouncements? They're supposed to be hanging on it's every word? Coming just after they may have felt themselves insulted (rightly or wrongly) by a less-than-well considered statement made by the Vicar General of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, in near-to off the cuff remarks he made in a telephone interview, coming hard on the heels of some Christian churches in Israel suffering graffiti vandalism (at the hands of Israeli bigots, it appeared)? They're supposed to notice only one side of the expressed bigotry, when for centuries they have been subject to "incoming fire" so to speak? They feel themselves just as militantly justified in all things, as the most hard-headed of any other religion, *some* of them do, anyway...

That Bishop did later provide revised & extended remarks, which satisfy me well enough, but still may leave some offended.

A brother offended is harder to win than a fortified castle. One's own "castle" may have fortified walls of some thickness...yet must we go out of the way to relentlessly lob [personalized] mortars at all perceived enemies?

But here I may be putting yourself into a similar (but quite miniature) situation comparable to what we both may be now asking for, from some Israeli's and other Jews. Asking for understanding, perhaps forgiveness for "misunderstandings".

Can you see how that it is, or could be a two-way street? How are the Israeli's supposed to take all of this (the article, other events, etc.)? How are other freepers supposed to take it, when it doesn't look so good on the surface, then they receive additional repeated insult? In the course of a "discussion concerning the issues". Folks are going to have opinions. We all have them.

[RFEngineer]

“Seen as such (from it’s wider context), it’s not exactly equating Israeli Jews alone (and we who support them?), today, as an Herod archetype, but is seen in my own eyes, more in regards to how we on earth resist Christ, more generally, as the results of such grasps for “power” play out in the world today.”

‘Not Exact’ does not mean “false”, and that seems to be the debating strategy of those defending the Cardinal - if he didn’t literally say something, the article is false and outrageous. It may be slanted, but it is not false nor is outrage over the wording completely outrageous. There is apparently a larger body of quotation from the good Cardinal that day that will not be acknowledged.

If the Cardinal did not mean to imply what his outrageous statement implies, then it’s worthy of clarification by the Vatican. The argument that “he wasn’t on the clock” rings hollow.

The sure way to avoid debates like this is for people like the good Cardinal to focus on the souls and not the geopolitics. If he really doesn’t think Israeli children have souls, and that Israeli’s aren’t “baby killers” now would be a good time to point that out, in the name of compassion, and to preserve the credibility of the Catholic faith in the region. If the good Cardinal feels the need to condemn someone, pick the savages that deliberately place children in harms way - there is the apt comparison to Herod’s atrocity.

Thank you for your thoughtful and lengthy reply.

[Lera]

This thread has been proved completely bogus, and yet FR allows it to continue. FR has lost all credibility and is guilty of the Sin of Scandal. Shame on FR!


If this thread is completely bogus and Ravasi is not equating Gaza to Rachael weeping for her children then why does Ravasi not clarify that on his own twitter feed since it is obvious that the people who are posting to his feed seem to think the connection he made is in reference to the children of Gaza

See for yourself ...he is not speaking up to deny the connection


https://twitter.com/CardRavasi/status/271537847733989376


NO EXCUSE FOR SUPPORTING SOMETHING LIKE THIS

[marshmallow]

I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you. The liberal media, in case you aren't aware, is on the side of the "Palestinians" against Israel. Read the articles posted lately on some of them over the latest "dust-up". You won't find much sympathy for Israel there.

It would have been reported. This would be a two-fer for the liberal press. A chance to set Jews and Catholics at each others' throats.

Furthermore, there is no conspiracy of silence, the FR kook chorus, notwithstanding. Reuters, AP, The NY Times, the TV networks......one or more of them would have picked up on this and run with it.

There's zilch. Just Meiotti's garbage.

[Lera]

Yep I agree .
Had a very blessed Thanksgiving ,hope you did too :)

[Religion Moderator]

This is an open thread on the Religion Forum.

If you believe the claims made in the article and replies are false, wrong, biased, antagonistic or whatever then argue your points on thread not by requesting the claims be removed or sources be banned.

[Lera]

Furthermore, there is no conspiracy of silence, the FR kook chorus, notwithstanding. Reuters, AP, The NY Times, the TV networks......one or more of them would have picked up on this and run with it.


The kook chorus eh?

The kook is the one you are trying to protect . The kook is the Obama of the Roman Catholic church who mocks the fundamental view of the bible because he believes in evolution and likes Darwin , likes to quote Nietzsche who thinks God is dead , he even likes to twitter on his cell phone and seems have a thing for Chicago to boot .
Some even think he is a good candidate to be the next Pope . LOL wonder if he is going to pick the name "Petrus Romanus"

I want to affirm, as an a priori, the compatibility of the theory of evolution with the message of the Bible and the Church's theology

“ Ravasi pointed out that Charles Darwin had never been condemned by the church, nor was his Origin of Species ever placed on the index of prohibited books. Ravasi brushed aside a question about whether the Catholic Church should posthumously apologise to Darwin

http://www.faith.org.uk/publications/Magazines/Nov08/Nov08CuttingEdge.pdf

Quoting the late Pope John Paul II, Ravasi said that "evolution can no longer be considered a hypothesis."
Pope Benedict XVI warned last week against fundamentalists' literal interpretations of the Bible. The pontiff told a gathering of intellectuals and academics in Paris that the structure of the Bible "excludes by its nature everything that today is known as fundamentalism. In effect, the word of God can never simply be equated with the letter of the text," Benedict said.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5817832&page=1#.UK-Md4arqSo

Ravasi said that Antje Jackelén, the female bishop of Lund, will not only be an enthusiastic participant in the Courtyard project, but she’s also invited Ravasi to be a permanent member of a theological association she founded for the protection of the environment.

tRavasi ended his essay with a familiar quotation from Nietzsche, which serves as a sort of unofficial motto for the Courtyard initiative: “Only a person of deep faith can afford the luxury of skepticism.”
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/ravasi-most-interesting-man-church
(Nietzsche - as in Death of God theology )
Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi Rome, Italy, Feb 7, 2011 / 03:26 pm (CNA).- As Paris prepares to host a new forum for dialogue between believers and non-believers, the Vatican official in charge of the initiative sees interest cropping up all over the globe.

The first major "Courtyard of the Gentiles" meeting is due to take place this March 24-25 in the French capital. The Pontifical Council for Culture-promoted program aims to engage leaders of French culture in dialogue on issues of religion, enlightenment and common reason.

Important sites of culture, including the storied Sorbonne University, have been chosen for a series of encounters.
There will also be a moment for young people to meet in a more public "courtyard," the large square outside the Basilica of Notre Dame, to have discussions. Pope Benedict XVI will address the young people in a video message. Inside the basilica, the ecumenical Taize community will be leading a prayer service.
Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, the head of the council for culture, told Vatican Radio Feb. 5 that interest is being generated around the world. The council has heard from a number of cities interested in the possibility of hosting such a forum of their own.

One institution, the University of Bologna, Italy – called the Alma Mater Studiorum ­– plans to hold a gathering next week, ahead of the Paris event in March. On Feb. 12, the university will bring back the tradition of "disputed questions." Cardinal Ravasi said that this was traditionally an exchange of opinions on a variety of subjects, whereas questions in the coming event will pertain to matters of belief and non-belief.

During the talks, four professors will exchange viewpoints on God while examining law, philosophy, literature and science. Teachings from Pascal, St. Augustine and Nietzsche will be read aloud by another participant in between the academics' remarks.

For the cardinal, there is no limit to the possibilities. He spoke of "crossing the ocean and going to the most remote countries, beginning with the United States, where there has already been interest in Chicago and Washington." http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-looks-to-expand-dialogue-with-non-believers-to-us/

LOL
HE IS YOUR KOOK
Three Possible Popes- President of the Pontifical Council for Culture, Ravasi is someone I’ve described as having “the mind of Ratzinger and the heart of Roncalli” – meaning the intellectual chops of Benedict XVI, coupled with the optimism and opening to the world of John XXIII. A Biblical scholar, he served from 1989 to 2007 as prefect of the Ambrosian Library in Milan, where he worked with Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini – although Ravasi was seen as slightly more conservative than Martini, a hero to the church’s progressive wing. Ironically, rumors in Italy suggest Ravasi was set to become the bishop of Assisi in 2005, but was blocked because of allegedly heterodox views on Easter. Benedict XVI effectively resolved those doubts by giving him a major Vatican post, and by making him a cardinal. Ravasi is widely read, in part because he only sleeps about four hours every night. He peppers his talks with literary allusions, ranging from church fathers to Nietzsche, Newton and Lev-Strauss. http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2011/05_06/2011_05_04_Allen_ThreePossible.htm

[Natural Law]

"If you believe the claims made in the article and replies are false, wrong, biased, antagonistic or whatever then argue your points on thread not by requesting the claims be removed or sources be banned."

With all due respect, you dodged my question. How does the remnantofgod.org site linked by Westbrook differ from Jack Chick, Jesus-is-Lord.com, Jesus-is-Savior.com, BibleBelievers.com, Vdare, KKK, Aryan Nations, National Alliance, Christian Identity, the false Jesuit Oath, the false Oath of the Knights of Columbus, and fatimamovement.com? It is certainly not in the content.

Peace and Blessings.

[impimp]

I think it would take more than a dumb opinion to have a Cardinal removed from office. I think it is a little like a US supreme court appointment in that respect.

A thousand dumb opinions do not add up to 1 heresy - without the presence of crime or heresy I see nothing happening.

[Lera]

At you and your mouth-breathing pals
Yesterday I was busy cooking , today I am not.
mouth-breathing -Someone stupid who is unaware that their mouth is gaping open
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mouth-breather

Pro 11:9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Are you going to go whine to the moderator?

[Lera]

I just want you to know that I am still praying for you.

---

You call me eternal, then do not seek me.

You call me fair, then do not love me.

You call me gracious, then do not trust me.

You call me just, then do not fear me.

You call me life, then do not choose me.

You call me light, then do not see me.

You call me Lord, then do not respect me.

You call me Master, then do not obey me.

You call me merciful, then do not thank me.

You call me mighty, then do not honor me.

You call me noble, then do not serve me.

You call me rich, then do not ask me.

You call me Savior, then do not praise me.

You call me shepherd, then do not follow me.

You call me Way, then do not walk with me.

You call me wise, then do not heed me.

You call me Son of God, then do not worship me.

When I [sentence] you, then do not blame me.

[Lera]

I think it would take more than a dumb opinion to have a Cardinal removed from office. I think it is a little like a US supreme court appointment in that respect. A thousand dumb opinions do not add up to 1 heresy - without the presence of crime or heresy I see nothing happening.

See post 228 please. This cardinal believes in evolution and likes Darwin, is into enviromentalism , and likes to quote God is dead Nietzsche . People are talking about making him the next Pope.

BTW check out his twitter feed too . People are equating Gaza to his quote and he is not saying anything to discourage the two being tied together.

This guy is a classic academic liberal but the difference between him and the average liberal is he has a position in the Vatican and could be chosen as the Pope

[marshmallow]

Ravasi's entire discourse will be posted in this forum in due course. We'll go through it sentence by sentence. You can point out to us the exact words which justify the headline "The Vatican on Gaza: Israel is a baby-killer".

I look forward to it.

[Lera]

Ravasi's entire discourse will be posted in this forum in due course. We'll go through it sentence by sentence. You can point out to us the exact words which justify the headline "The Vatican on Gaza: Israel is a baby-killer". I look forward to it.

I'll keep posting every other godless thing I can find that he has said to the media . No doubt you will keep making excuses for him.
Things edited and translated by the Vatican to cover for him don't count much

[stfassisi]

“”If you believe the claims made in the article and replies are false, wrong””

This thread claims that Cardinal Ravasi does not care about the Jewish people and only cares about the Palestinian’s

We can clearly see Cardinal Ravisi does care about Jewish people when he wrote the following.

From...http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701915.htm
Msgr. Ravasi also reflected on women “who have been abused and raped, ostracized and submitted to shameful tribal practices, anxious women left to raise their children alone, Jewish and Palestinian mothers, and those from all countries at war, widows and the elderly forgotten by their children.”

RM, do you really want FR to promote slander?

[stfassisi]

There was no mention of a Jewish or Christian God, only a reference to a completely blood thirsty un-Christian god that does not value the innocent.

That is in contrast to the Christian God, who because He is love, commands to love one another, not just those who look, sound, and act like us. If you do not love the children of the Gaza as dearly as you love yourself you stand in opposition to his commandments.

Our dear friend ZC should realize we believe in an unchanging God of Love who would be changed from perfection if He had hatred in Him

[Iscool]

If you think a comparison of the pain of a Palestinian mother to the pain felt by the mother's of the infants killed by Herod is not universal and is outrageous and unfair you do not understand love. That explains a lot.

Couldn't prove it by me...I know of no other group of people that seem to encourage their sons and daughters to commit suicide for the sake of killing others...

Like we've been hearing for some time...'They hate Jews more than they love their own children'...

[Iscool]

In his remarks the Cardinal mentioned a cycle of violence in the middle east dating back thousands of years and cited Herrod's killing of the innocent among several examples.

Yes he did...And he equated the killing of the innocents to the Jewish act of defense of the killing of her own innocents...

[RegulatorCountry]

The Old Testament God is the New Testament.

The God of Abraham who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and commanded the slaughter of the Canaanites is the God of Christianity as well.

The difference is in the means of forgiveness of sin. There is the love of God but there is also the wrath of God, then as now.

To believe otherwise is to imagine some great cosmic Santa Claus, a grave error.