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To: annalex

 

The Catholic religion is based on the fallacy that Jesus gave the 12 something that was not given to all believers, including us.

He charged them with certain tasks: to teach all nations, baptize, offer the Eucharist, hear confessions (of which later, since you specifically asked). The scripture also mentions on a number of occasions that Christ taught the disciples but it does not say what He taught. But there is no secret teaching: whatever the disciples learned, whether committed to scripture or not, they are to teach the rest of us.

All but the false teaching of the confessional are things all believers are to do.

There were about 120 disciples including women. All were filled with the Holy Spirit.

True. Also see "Do penance (µeta???sate), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

In this instance all of their sins against God are forgiven by God in the name of Jesus for what He accomplished on the cross. Peter forgave no sins.

where Jesus gave Peter, or anyone else, the ability to forgive a man’s sin or sins against God for God [...?]

Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:23)
That is to the "disciples ... gathered together".

As you stated, it is to the disciples gathered together. No mention of how many where there and we know from later scripture Thomas wasn't. I am a disciple of Christ. It pertains to me as well.

If you sin against me and ask forgiveness, I have to forgive you. If I don't, my sins against God are bound and cannot be forgiven. If I forgive you, my sins are loosed and can be forgiven.

There are other passages that point to the exclusive character of priestly function: in Luke 22:19 those at the Last Supper are charged with giving the Eucharist that they just received, to others; in James 5:14 we see that a priest is to minister to sick people; in Acts 8:14-17 we see that Sts Peter and John confirmed a newly baptized Christian; In Timothy and Titus we see ordinations (imposition of hands of the priesthood) mentioned throughout.

All through Acts we see multiple disciples doing much of the same things after being filled with God's Spirit.

the penalty or penance for sin is spiritual death. The penance for sin for Catholics is 10 Hail Mary and 5 Our Fathers

Penance is not penalty. The penalty for sin is indeed spiritual death; that penalty is lifted by Jesus Christ at the absolution given by the priest. Once the priest has given the absolution he assigns a penance, not to punish the sin but to build up the penitent's character against future sin. It is sometimes asked: -- What if I don't do the penance? and the answer is, the sin you confessed is still forgiven but if you did not do the penance willingly while able, you have incurred another sin, that of disobeying the instruction of the priest. Penances are light in the modern Church precisely not to create a confusion in the mind of people that you just expressed. However, if a crime is confessed, the priest would typically ask that restitution be made or the criminal turn himself to the police, -- so penances do not have to be light.

You are right about penance. I was thinking about a penitentiary and forgot they weren't for punishment but for one to reflect on their life.

You still haven't showed me where Jesus gave Peter or any man the right to forgive another man's sin or sins against God for God.

May God our Father lead us all to His truth, BVB

 

 

142 posted on 10/30/2012 9:27:41 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: Bobsvainbabblings
All but the false teaching of the confessional are things all believers are to do

No: nowhere are all believers told that they can forgive sins on behalf of God, -- -they are told instead to forgive personally so that they can be forgiven for sins. I listed other sacramental functions that the Holy Scripture associates specifically with priests.

In this instance all of their sins against God are forgiven by God in the name of Jesus for what He accomplished on the cross. Peter forgave no sins.

Correct: baptism of an adult includes repentance but it does not require a priest or formal confession.

I am a disciple of Christ. It pertains to me as well.

You believe that you can give absolution for sins confessed to you because this power was given to a group of disciples in the Upper Room? On what scriptural basis?

If I forgive you, my sins are loosed and can be forgiven.

True, but that is not the same as forgiving sins of others, given specifically in John 20:23. You are being asked to have a forgiving heart, a Christian virtue. You are not empowered to lift the stain of sin from the others, whether they ask you for it or not.

All through Acts we see multiple disciples doing much of the same things after being filled with God's Spirit.

That is because multiple disciples were then priests. However, the charge to give the transubstantiated bread and wine of the Eucharist (22:19) is only given to the group present at the Last Supper; the last rite mentioning specifically mentions "presbyteros", priest (James 5:14); the situation described in Acts 8:14-17 only makes sense if Peter and John had faculties others, who baptized the new Christians had not. Read the Bible carefully and your illusions will crumble: Christian lay people do have a priestly role, as well as roles of prophets and kings, but it is limited to their households; it is not to be confused with sacramental priesthood, which is seriously limited. In Acts 8:18 Simon wants to buy himself priesthood given by imposition of hands; in 1 Timothy 4:14 the "imposition of the hands of the priesthood" is said to have special grace (also 2 Timothy 1:6); in 1 Timothy 5:22 St. Timothy is instructed not to ordain priests "lightly".

You still haven't showed me where Jesus gave Peter or any man the right to forgive another man's sin or sins against God for God.

I did. It's John 20:23 where precisely that charge (not just right) was given to the disciples in the Upper Room. You mentioned that that group did not include St. Thomas and included possibly a larger group than just the 10 remaining apostles, but that does not contradict the fact that to a certain group on hand at the time the power to forgive and retain sins, which takes effect in heaven, is given. how that group expands to other priests we see from the two Timothys and Titus: by "the imposition of hands of the priesthood", mentioned there numerous times, sometimes also called "ordination" in the same letters.

I am also curious which power do you think "pertains to [you] as well" in the statement you made in the same post as your reaction to John 20:23 quote? You seem to alternatively think that no one is empowered to forgive sins against God on behalf of God and that you are so empowered.

143 posted on 10/31/2012 5:51:43 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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