Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: JCBreckenridge; Springfield Reformer
It's kinda funny reading through your rebuttals to SR's post. You sound like you have been following Biden's tactic to deny, mock, calling points myths, saying that they are not true and overall offering nothing substantial to counter but your own preconceived ideas and fabricated "history". A few that came to mind:

Not so. They are authoritative because they are Church Councils. The only thing backing them is the magisterium and the pope.

If you read the texts from the earliest councils, they rely upon Scripture almost exclusively to prove the conclusions they make. What makes, or SHOULD make, anything binding upon a Christian is doctrine derived from Holy Scripture. It has always been considered God-breathed truth, so it has preeminence. As SR stated, doctrines that have come from later councils, that contradict Scripture or which make binding on one's salvation belief in a doctrine NOT Scripturally proven, are NOT binding upon a Christian. You seem to make total obedience to whatever the "Magesterium" deems de fide a prerequisite to eternal life. I've read the convoluted wording of the various canon laws that attempt to lay it all out, but I don't have a Juris doctorate to decipher it. Here's a link to a few that will help you see what I'm talking about: http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/heresy-infallibility.htm. An excerpt:

    The term heresy is defined in Canon 751:

    Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

    The Catechism echoes Canon 751:

    “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same….” (CCC, 2089)

    Now there are two types of teachings of the Magisterium: infallible teachings of the Sacred Magisterium, and non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium. And consequently there are two types of assent to those teachings: the assent of faith (sacred assent), and the religious submission of will and intellect (ordinary assent). Heresy involves the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt of infallible teachings, which require the assent of divine and catholic faith (sacred assent). This includes all truths taught by the Magisterium under any of the three ways that the Magisterium teaches infallibly.

    However, one can also be a heretic by obstinately denying or doubting certain teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium, namely, those necessary and essential to salvation. For even though the Ordinary Magisterium is non-infallible, it cannot err in such a way as to lead the faithful away from the path to salvation. Most of the heresies in the early Church were of this type, since there were not many magisterial pronouncements at that time.

    A teaching falls under the Universal Magisterium (i.e. the ordinary universal Magisterium) when the Bishops of the Church “…even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.” (Lumen Gentium, n. 25)

    All other teachings of the Magisterium, other than those that fall under one of the three modes of infallibility, are, without exception, ordinary and non-infallible, and are subject to the possibility of error, even on matters of faith and morals, but never to such an extent that any error, or set of errors, could lead the faithful away from the path of salvation.

    These teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium are referred to by then Cardinal Ratzinger, with particular wording, as “the non-infallible teaching of the Magisterium” and “non-irreformable magisterial teaching,” in the document issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith called 'The Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian,' n. 28 and 33. This wording demonstrates Cardinal Ratzinger's understanding that not all Magisterial teachings are infallible or irreformable.

    In the same Address to the U.S. Bishops cited above, Pope John Paul II said: “With respect to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the Church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will.” Clearly, the term religious submission of will and intellect refers to the ordinary non-infallible teachings of the Magisterium and is a different degree and type of assent than the divine and Catholic faith due to infallible teachings.

    Therefore, the Magisterium can teach both infallibly and non-infallibly. Heresy is the denial or obstinate doubt of the infallible teachings and also of those ordinary teachings which are essential to salvation; heresy is a refusal to give the full assent of faith due to those teachings. The denial or doubt of non-infallible teachings in general might also be sinful and culpable, but the sin is not generally the sin of heresy and is a lesser matter, because the assent required is a lesser degree of assent.

So, though you assert that Apostolic Succession and Papal Primacy go hand in hand with "infallibility", a closer look at the actual sidesteps and caveats, not to mention the contradictions SR noted between Vatican I and Vatican II WRT anathema/not anathema and other historical events, you really do not have such a nice neat little package called the "unity" of the Catholic Church. Even Trent could not get everyone to agree on the Canon of Scripture, so there was no unanimous consent on that either. If you care to look into that, here is another informative link for your reading pleasure: http://thesearewritten.blogspot.com/2007/08/cardinal-cajetan-on-biblical-canon.html.

I will address the rest of your points tomorrow. Have a good night.

241 posted on 10/17/2012 11:25:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 239 | View Replies ]


To: boatbums

Sheesh! If I didn’t know how serious they were, it would read like satire. Picture John Cleese reading it. Amazing.


242 posted on 10/17/2012 11:46:04 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 241 | View Replies ]

To: boatbums

“I will address the rest of your points tomorrow. Have a good night.”

Save your time and don’t bother. Since you’ve labelled me as “Biden”, I see no need to persue discussion with you any further. :)

Treat me with respect and you get respect. Treat me with disrespect, and I will simply ignore you.


245 posted on 10/18/2012 12:56:54 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 241 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson