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To: albionin
Why is there a war between science and religion? Because there is a contradiction between reason and faith. Contrary to what most people think they are opposites. The whole premise of the Bible is that faith is superior to reason

I see several problems with this discussion. First, you are smuggling in definitions of faith and reason that won't hold water.

The New Testament word for faith (verb form = believe) pisteuo, means to place confidence in something. It has no implicit notion of the rejection of reason. In fact, it isn't a religious term. Faith is simply trust. It is a universal experience. If you trust is reason, you have faith in reason.

Secondly, to say that the Bible presumes that faith is superior (rather than complimentary) to reason is simply a bare assertion. It is NOT true. For example, Isaiah writes, "Come let us reason together". Both Jesus and Paul "reasoned from the scriptures". There are many similar statements in the Bible.

The closest I can come to what you are baldly asserting with no proof that the "whole premise of the Bible is that faith is superior to reason" is Jesus statement to Thomas comparing his belief because of his direct experience of the risen Christ and that of those who had not seen and yet believe (have confidence in) the Resurrection. I do not have Thomas' direct experience and yet I believe based on, among other things, what I hold to be a reasonable trust in the eyewitnesses who died for their belief in that Resurrection.

The opposition of reason and faith is a secularist myth that itself cannot be sustained by reason.

27 posted on 10/07/2012 3:28:33 PM PDT by newberger (Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.)
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To: newberger

I define reason as identification and integration of sensory perceptions of Objective reality by a process of logic or non-contradictory identification. Example: I believe the sun will rise tomorrow because it has risen every day for approximately 4.56 billion years. No one has ever observed the sun not rising precisely when it is supposed to. 2+2=4. Existence exists.

I define faith as belief in knowledge gained from some mystical or supernatural source not connected to sensory perception of objective reality. Example: I believe that man fell from grace and is being punished by God because he ate from the tree of knowledge because it says so in the bible. The Earth is not 4.56 billion years old because it says so in the Bible. The Bible is the true word of God because it says so in the Bible.

What problems do you see with those definitions?

It is implicit that Faith is superior to reason when God demands that one accept his words on faith and not walk by sight but by faith.


28 posted on 10/07/2012 5:18:38 PM PDT by albionin
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To: newberger

I forgot to mention that the things in the Bible which are supposed to be trusted in cannot be proven or dis-proven. They are outside the realm of reason.

Before anything can be reasoned from scriptures those scriptures must be accepted on faith.

The fact of the opposition of faith and reason can be proven by logic.

Reason is objective.

Faith is subjective.

logic says “It exists therefore I believe it”.

Faith says “I believe it therefore it exists”. Or worse yet, “millions of People believe it therefore it exists”.

If one is interested in the truth how are reason and faith complimentary in any way?


29 posted on 10/07/2012 5:35:46 PM PDT by albionin
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To: newberger

BRAVO!


30 posted on 10/07/2012 7:38:03 PM PDT by BwanaNdege (Man has often lost his way, but modern man has lost his address - Gilbert K. Chesterton)
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