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To: Mrs. Don-o; marshmallow
I suppose then Pope Innocent III’s bloody campaign against the Albigenses during which thousands of them were slaughtered would disqualify him and his henchmen as “true believers”.
And I might add those who defend his murders also.

“.... the ex-sword-wielding Apostle Peter”?

Peter was told he was wrong to wield the sword and he didn't go out to burn and torture “heretics”.

34 posted on 09/16/2012 7:06:45 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
I suppose then Pope Innocent III’s bloody campaign against the Albigenses during which thousands of them were slaughtered would disqualify him and his henchmen as “true believers”. And I might add those who defend his murders also.

That there have been "unbelievers" in positions of authority within the Church is beyond dispute. There still are today.

Is the current plight of Christians in Syria, Iraq and other places no more than a window of opportunity to attack Catholicism? Or is your point here that this is an example of "what goes around, comes around" and that we've had this coming to us?

Is there some weird Jehovah's Witness Scripture interpretation which says that Catholics and Orthodox getting a good kicking from the Muslims, is all part of God's plan to punish the "Harlot of Rome"?

37 posted on 09/16/2012 7:57:01 PM PDT by marshmallow (.)
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To: count-your-change; marshmallow
If you will look at the list of Popes from Peter til now you'll see that only a minority of them are canonized saints. All had faults, some were merely weak, stupid and mediocre, and about 7 or 8 of them --- by my count, YMMV --- were really and truly wicked. This is pretty generally acknowledged.

As for Pope Innocent III, I am not a student of the era but I do know that although he was one of the most influential Popes in history, he is far from being considered a saint.

Furthermore, somebody who IS a canonized saint --- St. Lutgarda of Brabant -- received a vision of him being in the fires of purgatory on the very day he died. Engulfed in flames, he declared to her, “I am Pope Innocent”. He continued to explain that he was in purgatory for three crimes grievously offensive to Our Lord. He said --- according to St. Lutgarda--- that he had repented on his deathbed and was saved by the grace of God, but still had to make reparations for his grave faults.

"Alas! It is terrible; and will last for centuries" he is reported to have said to Lutgarda.

So do not make the mistake of supposing that evil men and their henchmen---- even wicked Popes --- are regarded as "true believers."

"Great men's" lives -- and I am unable to use the term"great men" without conscious irony, always --- are often a mixture of great good and great evil. Just today I was reading 1 Samuel 27, which recounts David's massacre of every human being, men and women alike, when he was raiding tribes and seizing cattle and booty and on the run from Saul. Sin of every sort, and surely murder, is deadly if not repented; and as the admirable American Catholic Dorothy Day said, "You can go to hell by imitating the vices of the saints!"

As for the ex-sword-wielding Peter: no, he didn't go out and burn and torture heretics. He went out and repented instead. And Jesus was good to heal the man he maimed, and the soul of Peter as well. May it always be so.

51 posted on 09/17/2012 5:58:51 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." - St. John Chrysostom, Bishop)
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