What Catholics can learn from the Quran (Albany diocesan official)

RNS ^ | August 20, 2012 | Kathleen K. Duff

[Cronos]

I really don't understand how someone can read the Koran from end to end and not realise how incoherent it is. REading the MK makes you realise that Adolfie was starkers, BUT he was true to his word -- whatever he did, he said he would do in the MK. If only more people read it.

we should all read the Koran and know our enemy

[rollo tomasi]

I am friends with several Muslims, one is a hair dresser who left Iran because they don’t like male hair dressers that much. His wife converted to Catholicism and is very evangelical concerning her desire to spread Christ’s salvation message.

Anyway we debate about theology etc... but from a “moderate muslim” point of view is that the good in the Quran covers the bad. The Muslim “terrorist” take the bad too literally. Thus, the justification.

[Cronos]

well, my Muslim friends don’t read the Koran at all...

[roamer_1]

I have decided that I need to read it

While you and I are often in opposition, there is no doubt in my mind that you have the fortitude to do so - And avail yourself of an opportunity to read the associated hadiths as well... Similar to the 'tradition' of your belief, one cannot understand it for what it is without them... Also, keep a weather eye on it's prophecy, which you will no doubt find to be diametrically opposed to the prophets of YHWH.

Know your enemy, indeed.

It is unfortunate that the Roman church is moving toward embracing Islam (declaring Islam's god to be the same as our God as an instance). They continue on this path at our collective expense. It will bear evil fruit and dire consequences. And your exploration of the koran will prove it.

[rollo tomasi]

Lol, well maybe they should read the origins of what they profess to believe.

[denydenydeny]

Each day and evening, the prayerful poetry in the Quran held me in a meditative mode of peace as I read without being aware of the passage of time.

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

[jmacusa]

Good luck on that. And the next time your hear someone talk about ‘’moderate Islam’’ ask them this : If the religion were so peaceful, why then the need for ‘’moderation’’? Wouldn't that make the argument Islam isn't peaceful? That one REALLY shuts them up.

[jmacusa]

I’ve read it too and found there to be more of a coherent story in a supermarket circular. You can’t separate a philosopher from his philosophy, it is him, he is it. My main contention with this 7th. century barbarism is not only what it does and has done to humanity for 14 centuries but with who and what it’s founder was. Everything else about ‘’radical Islam’’( there is no such thing;it’s all radical) good Muslims vs ‘’bad ones(were there ever any good Nazis?) is all pettifogging. Start and end with Mohammed. He was a monster, evil incarnate and so is the movement he founded. No sane person, atheist or follower of any other faith has any business associating themselves with this misanthropic,anachronistic throwback to the Dark Ages.

[Cronos]

Actually the Dark Ages has it better than Islam's lifestyle in Saudia or say Taliban Afghanistan.

What he came up with was a perfect way to get men to fight for him -- promise them slaves of women to sleep with as much as they wanted and if they die, they get virgins who they can continuously deflower (and they get re-flowered again whatever that means) and boys and wine etc.

[Cronos]

Bullsh — at NO point has the Christian church said Allah is the same as God. Read it carefully and it says that “together with them we worship one God” — it acknowledges that Moslems are monotheists. It does NOT acknowledge that they worship the SAME god.

[jmacusa]

Correct. As I said, Islam two main themes are sexual perversion and killing. It certainly seems to be, not only a guidebook for living in the 7th. century a.d. but it is by any, even cursory examination, the most in-favor set of male dominance set of rules and regulations ever conceived.

[ArrogantBustard]

Here is the passage in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which gets some people upset:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Near as I can tell, the mohammedans assert that God is One, that He is merciful, and that He will judge mankind.

If so, they are correct in so asserting. That may well be the extent of their correctness ... and what I have seen suggests that they go off the rails pretty quickly after that. Still ... it puts them ahead of Marxist Communists, for example, who deny God entirely.

[RichardMoore]

Yes, the Albany Diosese is a mess. I have seen it in person on many occasions. If you are interested in the connection between Islam and the Nazis there is a fine book that was researched for 40 years on the topic. It is titled THE ICON OF EVIL and you should be able to get it at your library or Barnes & noble. It is only 140 pages, but it will be an eye opener.

[arthurus]

I did not say it was 95% anything. I said that even if it were but then some folks only read every third word and think they have got it all.

[roamer_1]

Here is the passage in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which gets some people upset: [...] 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims [...]

Near as I can tell, the mohammedans assert that God is One, that He is merciful, and that He will judge mankind. If so, they are correct in so asserting.

While not the only defense of my statement: "The Roman church claims we (Christians v. Islam) serve the same God," your evidence as per your last comment, serves the purpose for now. To accept the claim by the Muslims that they in fact serve the God of Abraham - Namely YHWH - One must needfully accept it as such by face value alone, without consideration of the evidence. IOW, "They do because they SAY they do."

Mohammed (to include later agents acting in discipleship) declares himself to be a prophet of a god. In order for that god to be YHWH (according to YHWH), there must needfully be 100% consistency with what came before.

This is an incredibly important point of order which is ignored by Christendom (not just y'all). YHWH's evidence that He (and He alone) is GOD is that He declares the end from the beginning - That what He said in the beginning will in fact be the result in the end. Without that proof, there is no evidence that He is in fact God, and worthy of our praise and worship. Therefore, that which was declared before must needfully be maintained, and is the primary reason for the general statement by YHWH: "I am YHWH and I do not change".

This sets Him apart particularly in the field of 'gods' - Every other religion/deity that I have examined allows change in what 'the deity said' to occur according to some kind of tradition or primary authority of the priest/king/etc. This is, as an aside, the primary reason I am opposed to y'all - Your tradition causes the Word of YHWH to be made null.

In that, those who lean upon the original covenant(s) (Torah primarily, entirety of the Tanakh or OT included) to add additional volumes to His Word (LDS, Muslims, and I would include even the New Covenant if not taken in the light of it's originating documents) and use those volumes to change what He said in the beginning can only be nefarious and profane in origination... a 'god' co-opting the truth of YHWH. While many may follow this prophet and his 'god' in ignorance, the fact remains that they are not following YHWH, unless they follow the One who does not change YHWH's words. That is what it really is all about at the root.

At that point, one must examine the deity professed and declared in those later additions to see if it is indeed, YHWH, and/or of YHWH.

I can make a defense of Yeshua as Messiah according to the Old Covenant... and what He (and His agents) says in the New Covenant, if taken in a context relying upon the Old Covenant, does not break the Law or the Prophets. Therefore I can declare Yeshua as Messiah, and I will follow Him technically as the Great Teacher and Prophet (technically = pertaining to the letter of His words, following His example as a disciple thereof)...

I cannot do so for the Koran, or it's prophet... and I will lay odds that you will not be able to either.

Allah is not YHWH.

So in this instance at least, The Roman church is dreadfully mistaken.

[roamer_1]

Bullsh — at NO point has the Christian church said Allah is the same as God. Read it carefully and it says that “together with them we worship one God” — it acknowledges that Moslems are monotheists. It does NOT acknowledge that they worship the SAME god.

I will let my answer to ArrogantBustard (to which you have already been pinged) supply my exhaustive reply, but in summary, Allah cannot be the God of Abraham.

[ArrogantBustard]

How many Gods exist, roamer_1?

One? Two? Many?

[roamer_1]

How many Gods exist, roamer_1? One? Two? Many?

There is only one God, YHWH. But there are many 'gods' - And in that, I am pointing to 'powers and principalities' wherein the real war lies. Apollyon (Apollo) is not God, but he claims to be. Likewise, Allah is not God, though He claims to be.

Where there is a prophet, claiming to represent a god, that is something to be taken very seriously.

[ArrogantBustard]

There is only one God, YHWH.

I agree. In fact, "Two" might as well be "many" ... once one has denied the absolute uniqueness and singularity of God, one is no longer talking about God but about Zeus.

Therefore, when someone declares (in whatever language) "God alone is God", that person has affirmed a fundamental truth. That person has also radically departed from most of historical human belief ... the error of polytheism is the historical norm.

Apollyon (Apollo) is not God,

I agree.

but he claims to be.

No, actually, neither Apollo, nor Zeus, nor ANY entity claiming to be one god of many is claiming to be God. That is the radical nature of YHWH's revelation to His people the Jews: the HE ALONE is God. Indeed, the Jewish people took many generations from the time of Abraham (or even of Moses) to the time of Jesus to really "get" that idea.

So, when the mohammedans assert that "God alone is God", they get something right that has been gotten wrong by pretty much every religion or faith ever in human history. It may be the only thing they get right, but it is right.

Similarly, when (if) they or anyone else asserts that God (one, singular) is merciful, or will judge humanity ... again, they speak Truth.

Finally, the passage from the Catechism says this of the mohammedans:

these profess to hold the faith of Abraham

That is a factual statement: either the mohammedans so profess, or they do not. Last time I checked, they do so profess. That is simply an objective fact. To acknowledge its existence is not to agree with it. Those are two separate things. In fact, the faith they appear to profess seems to me to have little relationship to the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So I disagree that they profess the faith of Abraham, but to deny that they CLAIM to profess it is folly.

Likewise, Allah is not God, though He claims to be.

I would say that while the mohammedans acknowledge and worship one singular unique god, they appear to misunderstand him so grossly as to render him unrecognizable. They worship falsely. Furthermore, that to the extent their misunderstanding of the deity comes from a non-human source, that source is NOT God. They did not get their ideas regarding God from YHWH. They got their ideas from some other entity. Whatever it was that was whispering in Mad Mo's ear, it wasn't YHWH.

[ArrogantBustard]

And in that, I am pointing to 'powers and principalities' wherein the real war lies.

Oh, yes: another point of fundamental agreement. As I alluded above, I think the mohammedans got most of their ideas from "principalities and powers". I think communists, national socialists, abortionists, and a whole lot of other malefactors get their ideas from the same source.