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To: spunkets; RaisingCain
Is Paul wrong here?

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Is Jesus wrong here?

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: [23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. [24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Or here?

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

In Matthew 25 it is the same Jesus as in John and Paul, so what he says here cannot contradict what he says there without introducing incoherency into the heart of the Gospel message:

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. [11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

It is abundantly clear that belief in Jesus is not an optional adornment of “shared values.” It is the essence of the Gospel.

Back to Matthew 25. Notice two things. First, the acts of kindness Jesus cites are directed to a specific group, the brothers (and impliedly sisters) of Jesus. Who are these brothers and sisters? Jesus tells us:

Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. [48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Well and good. It can be agreed there are many who do not do the will of God, especially if that will is understood in terms of good deeds (God’s “values”). There are many then who would be excluded. In fact, according to Paul, everyone:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Is Paul wrong? If not, how can there be any brothers or sisters of Jesus, let alone any sheep to separate from the goats on that great day of Jesus’ return in glory? We all stand convicted as rebels to the will of God. What then is the will of God that we should do, which if done, makes us a brother or sister of Jesus? Jesus tells us:

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So then we now know who these brothers and sisters of Jesus are. They are us who believe in Jesus. Directly.

So then who are these sheep who do kinds deeds to we who are the brothers and sisters of Jesus? We know they are blessed of the Father (verse 34), that their place in the kingdom was prepared for them “from the foundation of the world,” and that they have received Messiah Jesus, even if only indirectly through one of His local representatives:

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [41] He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. [42] And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

From the foregoing it appears that “shared values = salvation” is not a feasible interpretation of the salvation offered in Matthew 25. No one shares God’s values. Only faith in Messiah Jesus, whether direct or indirect, can rescue the lost soul. Therefore, what Peter said remains unalterably true, “there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Peace,

SR

107 posted on 08/19/2012 9:10:36 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
"It is abundantly clear that belief in Jesus is not an optional adornment of “shared values.” It is the essence of the Gospel."

No, it is not the essense of the Gospel (of salvation). Sola fide is empty, because it is an insufficient subset of what is required for salvation. The entire set of requirements for salvation consists of holding hte concepts and values of God. If one does that and has access to the true Person of God, then they will believe in Him. That belief comes from an examination of the evidence and reference to ones own core values.

Simply believing what someone says about God is not sufficient for salvation. Works are required as I pointed out per Matt 25 and works depend on one's core values, not who one has faith in.

"So then who are these sheep who do kinds deeds to we who are the brothers and sisters of Jesus?

Pagans do kind deeds for their friends. God expects them to be done for the least of men. There are those that do that w/o ever knowing who God is and they most assuredly are saved. Some of them reject what the Churches say, because they present errors. ie. sola fide, sola sciptura and the doctrines born of them and of the democratic actions of councils. Faith is belief in what someone says and that requires trust. One who presents errors and does not use logic to correct them does not deserve trust.

God's fundamental statement on salvation is the following given in Matt 12:32, "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. God judges according to the values one holds and expresses in action. He said in Matt 12:7, If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. These two statements from God contradict sola fide absolutely and indicate no one need believe in Jesus to be saved.

117 posted on 08/19/2012 11:25:10 PM PDT by spunkets
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