Posted on 08/18/2012 9:13:06 PM PDT by Salvation
“That is not all He said. He also said in Matt 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
See Matt 25:31-46 where God verifies and elaborates on that and makes it clear that faith w/o works counts for nothing. “
There is a difference between “calling Lord, Lord” and believing on Him. While works are certainly a manifestation of being born again, it is not the end all that be all. Salvation happens first, and works happen next:
Rom 4:1-11 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
In fact, you can have FALSE beliefs (though NOT in the essentials, such as the deity of Christ, the trinity, etc) or false works and still be saved, “though as by fire.”
1Co 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. (14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Who said I am a Protestant, or believe what they say? I am a scientist and believe what the evidence says.
Re: John 6:63, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.
"Are you taking this passage literally?"
Yes. It is God's explanation of His own metaphor given to all. It contradicts what the Church says about the metaphor of the body and blood, which is that the flesh counts for something. God says the flesh counts for nothing and the Church says the exact opposite. I'll believe what God says.
"It doesn’t appear that you believe Christ’s words, am I right?"
Appearances can be decieving. I said what I said in plain English. God took time out to explain His own metaphor and I note how many chose to ignore it in preference for something else.
No. One does not even need to know who God is to be saved. All that matters is that they value the things that God values.
“This passage makes it extremely clear that Paul – who received his understanding of it directly from Jesus Christ, as he declares – regards the Eucharist as truly the Body and Blood of Christ.”
It does no such thing. The entire chapter is discussing good conduct within the Church of God. For example, hair length for men, coverings for women. Paul was speaking of the Lord’s Supper, which is obviously an actual supper, and not a ritual where one gets a wafer and a sip of wine. The Corinthians were abusing it with gluttony and drunkenness, or eating separately from one another, before all were gathered, so that some would starve and another would be drunk. For that cause God was punishing them. Here is the preceding scripture:
1Co 11:19-22 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (20) When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. (21) For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. (22) What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
Here is his opinion:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” (1 Cor 11:23-25)
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16)
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. (1 Cor 11:27-29)
“No. One does not even need to know who God is to be saved. All that matters is that they value the things that God values.”
Paul is very clear. There is no sense that works are required, or that one can be saved outside of Christ by simply valuing what God values, whatever it is you mean by that. The scripture requires that you have faith in Jesus Christ, and that once this is done you are baptized by the Holy Spirit. From that point on the Spirit dwells in you and you in Christ. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding you though.
“You mentioned St. Paul?
Here is his opinion:”
Not only did I mention the Apostle Paul (we are all Saints), I demonstrated that the Lord’s Supper is an actual supper, and that the context was their abuse of that supper within the church of God.
“Melchisedech was made a priest by God directly, not via bloodline (as with the Levitical priesthood); and his priesthood was eternal as well. This foreshadowed Christ and His New Testament priests, who acquire their priesthood via an oath (sacramentum).
There is no scripture which makes this claim, that priesthood is acquired through an “oath”. It is pure Roman invention. We are made Kings and Priests in the sight of God. There are no special classes:
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
We are called lively stones, a peculiar people, made saints by the blood of the lamb:
1Pe 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
This is because we are saved not by our works, but by the works of Christ which we have put on through faith. We are worthy because HE is worthy:
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Rom 3:21-28 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
It is really nice to have the Church of England back. It never made any sense that they followed such a scoundrel into exile.
It is really nice to have the Church of England back. It never made any sense that they followed such a scoundrel into exile.
**abuse of that supper **
Huh?
Never heard that before. Did you read the article? It really doeos answer your questions.
...love http://catholicthinker.net/ , thanks.
We gotta help our brothers and sisters in Christ come to
believe in the pinnacle of the faith. If they could just
accept Our Lord’s presence in the Eucharist, all other misunderstanding about the faith will fall away.
The 7th Day, the millennial reign, the new time is
Christ’s spiritual reign, ALL hearts united in belief in the Eucharist.
a sample, read what the prophets have heard:
“The time for the end to this most evil age has come. The era of peace will no longer be delayed.”35
“I knew that this meant (a vision) that the Catholic Church would convert the whole world and would reign in the coming era of peace.”36
“The Holy Eucharist is ALL. The triumph of the Hearts of Jesus and Mary will come and there will be peace on earth. When it happens, you will gaze at my presence in the huge Eucharist, you will see what I have been revealing. You will see me in the form of bread and wine in a huge Host, for I am alive and whoever believes in me and in My Father who has sent me, will have eternal life in heaven.”37
“Evil begets evil (reference abortion). Your country (USA) will be cleansed and purged until one day I shall reign in a new era of peace and love.”38
“The great awakening (warning) is near. This great event will begin the march to the great era of peace. To the time when paradise will be restored.”39
“I wish as soon as I can to restore earth to its former glory, the reinstitution of Paradise where those who sought Me and My Son Jesus with their hearts shall dwell. But this privilege has to be earned by each person yearning to see and live in the new era which the Spirit of I Am revealed to My servants the prophets.”40
“I saw a glorious vision of the era of peace. I am in total awe of all that our Lord revealed to me: pure air, crystal clear water, beautiful trees and shrubs, even grass all in various luscious shades of green, etc. Flowers that were of such true vibrant hues and the earth’s soil appeared to be dark and rich in nutrients. Animals and man were living in complete harmony. Peace, joy, love in all creatures was so apparent. Every man, woman, child and animal was living to please God and to do only His Will. My tiny remnant will then live in my era of peace. All things will be made anew. Although some of my remnant will not live to see this new era, they will rest in peace with me.”41
“When the time comes, a new Jerusalem will come upon the land and the seas, and an era of peace will settle upon the earth.”42
“A new day will then dawn and I will reign as your Eucharistic King for the millennium of peace.”43
“My faithful and true remnant who listens to our/My every word and cherishes them and takes them to heart living them will be our people in the new era, which is not too far off in the distant future.”44
“There will no longer be abortion and the sounds of My little ones will triumph. There will be no more adultery, no more stealing. My Commandments, dear children, will be restored into the hearts of man. The era of peace will prevail upon my people.”45
“My Father’s era of peace will then be upon the earth and peace will reign in the HEARTS of those chosen to live during these times which will be called The Greater Testament and will be a time of great peace and love will exist in the hearts of all men.”46
35 Message 763, (01/11/2010), to Littlest of Servants from Jesus
36 Message 622, (12/22/2008, to Littlest of Servants from Jesus
37 Message 466, (06/14/2008), to Luz Diaz from Jesus
38 Message 334, (07/03/2005), to Ann Marie White from Jesus
39 Message 307, (03/16/2006), to James from the Holy Trinity
40 Message 228, (08/17/2007), to Lec from God the Father
41 Message 163, (03/13/2005), to Louise Tomkiel from Jesus
42 Message 434, (05/01/2008), to Ned Dougherty from Jesus
43 Message 104, (04/07/2005), to Louise Tomkiel from God the Father
44 Message 317, (05/01/2005), to Meriam from Jesus
45 Message 321, (06/11/2005), to Jennifer from Jesus
46 Message 337, (about 07/03/2005), to Meriam from Jesus
archives at Seers 2 ~
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seers2/message/29467
No. One does not even need to know who God is to be saved. All that matters is that they value the things that God values.
You are a Universalist then? Or at least you reject all that crazy talk about believing in Jesus? Is this from your specially custom edited Bible? Or can we find this doctrine in some more generally accepted version? Because my Bible says this:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
And this ...
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And a few other passages of similar effect. Well, really, more than a few. Just sayin ...
Peace,
SR
Paul does not grant salvation. God grants salvation and I pointed out what He said on the matter. He -God- specifically said works are required.
"or that one can be saved outside of Christ by simply valuing what God values"
The fact that one is saved by valuing what God values can be seen by analyzing the following passage, which is the fundamental governing statement from God on the matter.
Matthew 12:32, " Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
Note here htat God will even forgive folks that call him names. If that's true, then He would never find fault with those that don't even know Him. What does He say is unforgivable? It's saying something against the Holy Spirit, but that is Him and that will be forgiven. So what's left? It's the things that are held and valued by the Holy Spirit which are common to all three Persons oin the Trinity which are important. If one values those things that God values, one is saved —w/o ever knowing who God is. Of course they would never say anything against the Holy Spirit, the things God values, if they knew who He is. One does not even have to believe in the Trinity, or an afterlife...
No, that is not a Catholic belief.
“- Melchisedech offered an unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine, a thanksgiving (eucharistein) for God’s deliverance of Abram from his enemies. “As Melchisedech offered his sacrifice of behalf of Abram, Jesus would offer His sacrifice on Abram/Abraham’s [spiritual] offspring those who are members of His Church” (Salza).
- Melchisedech is greater than Abram, one of the holiest men in all of Scripture. This is made evident by the fact that Melchisedech blesses Abram.
- Since Melchisedech was called a priest but made no bloody offering, his bread and wine offering must have been a sacrifice (this is sometimes contested by Protestant apologists trying to wiggle out of the plain interpretation of the text). This also makes clear (as do many other things), that Christ’s Last Supper offering was a sacrifice since Christ’s priesthood is “in the order of Melchisedech”. “Further, because Scripture says Jesus made a ‘single sacrifice’ and ‘single offering’, this means that the Last Supper sacrifice and the sacrifice of the Cross are the same sacrifice” (Salza, and the emphasis is his).” “
There is no evidence that Melchizedek performed any “memorial sacrifice” by offering bread and wine. Here is the scripture in question:
Gen 14:17-20 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king’s dale. (18) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. (19) And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: (20) And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
You can certainly pretend that Abram kneeled down and received communion right then and there. (Of course, the New Testament believers didn’t even practice it like that, as other scriptures show it was an actual supper.) Or you can see it as a gift from him to refresh Abram after a significant battle. Whatever the case, the Romans read far more into it than what is actually there.
“Huh?
Never heard that before. Did you read the article? It really doeos answer your questions.”
I’m not surprised you’ve never heard of it before. Catholics, on average, can’t be depended upon to read the Bible! As for the article, it does nothing to address what I have said.
“It is really nice to have the Church of England back. It never made any sense that they followed such a scoundrel in to exile.”
~ ~ ~
They’re helped with a better understanding of the Mass. It’s
holiness, the grace given.
No.
"Or at least you reject all that crazy talk about believing in Jesus?"
Who is Jesus and what is this "crazy talk"?
"Is this from your specially custom edited Bible?"
WHat exactly is "this"?
"Or can we find this doctrine in some more generally accepted version?"
What "doctrine"?
"Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
God in Matt 25:31-39 contradicts this simple reading of Paul. God is quite inclusive about who He considers His sheep; they are those that do the will of His Father. He did not exclude those that never knew Him.
“Paul does not grant salvation. God grants salvation and I pointed out what He said on the matter. He -God- specifically said works are required.”
God specifically said faith is required:
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those who do not believe are not “forgiven,” they are condemned from the beginning and remain so. No sinner who does not repent can ever be saved.
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