—The words you used to describe the other guy did not sound all that tolerant to me. Words like:
reasonable Christians can disagree
LITERALLY like arguing with a liberal
use him as an example to the rest of the congregation
“non bullet doctrines” realizing that his interpretation is not necessarily the equivalent of God’s divine inspiration
is one of those “King James Only” believers
he refuses to consider what scripture actually says
He’s not familiar with the greek or hebrew lexicons
I just read those and didn’t see such a tolerant attitude as you claimed. I’m not attacking you, just trying to demonstrate that a tolerant person would not use some of the terms you did for someone who disagreed with him. That’s all.—
I should start by sharing my feelings about the word “tolerance”. I believe that the most religiously intolerant man that ever lived was Jesus.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I don’t consider Tolerance to be good or bad. It depends on the situation. I tolerate people having an opinion different than mine. What I don’t tolerate is when they DON’T tolerate it. ;-)
You see, reasonable Christians CAN disagree. Remember Paul and Barnabus? And in this case I described, it really WAS like arguing with a liberal - In essence, completely ignoring anything I said, regardless of the merit, AS IF I HAD NOT SPOKEN.
Regarding the “example” comment, it was way too brief to communicate what I meant, which, as I reread it, did not mean at all what I said. Sorry about that. What I meant was that others saw the discussion we had, my quiet attempts to share scripture and the meaning of English words, and his bull nosed “the bible sez there is iternal suffering, period.” responses, complete with lifting and patting his bible. IOW, let the observer determine which is the more compelling viewpoint.
Regarding my “bullet doctrines” statement: I don’t see what your problem is with that one. I was trying to be tolerant of our disagreement.
Regarding the “King James only” comment. Yep. I stand by it. I can get the word from any version and have enough understanding of the original languages to know that all versions are flawed. I don’t hold any version up as the one ordained by God. And when anyone else claims one is, I challenge them on it. I “tolerate” all versions to one degree or another. “King James only” people don’t. FWIW, the bible I use in church is King James. :-)
Regarding “he refuses to consider what scripture actually says”, I stand by that one too. He has so enjoined himself to the particular viewpoint that when you ask simple questions about the meaning of words he clams up and goes back to “the bible sez it’s eternal suffering and that settles it” mode. The liberal thing I spoke of earlier.
Regarding : He’s not familiar with the greek or hebrew lexicons, my point was that he is using his King James bible and, more importantly, his personal interpretation of what it means (on some very controversial subjects) to be the final word. He appears to have done what I consider to be anathema to a Christian believer: He has stopped learning. I pray I never get there, though it is a concern.
Just to reiterate, I think there are places for tolerance and places for intolerance. I am tolerant of opinions different than mine, but I am intolerant of those who disagree being intolerant of me disagreeing with them.
Sorta sounds like a twisting of words, but it does get to what is a real meme in the world today: When is it the high road to tolerate a thing and when is it the high road to not tolerate a thing?
BTW a friend of mine who is a pastor and author says this: Most Christians spend the first year or two of their Christian life reading the bible and learning who God is and what their relationship with him should be. They then spend the rest of their life defending that particular viewpoint, no matter how “dumb” a serious bible scholar may find some aspects of it. They can be like adults that stopped going to school in fourth grade and refuse to believe anything that contradicts what they had been taught up to that point.
I moved from Seattle and now live in the bible belt. The guy I bought my house from became a pastor at a church in my area where people attend religiously their entire life and have very, VERY strong opinions on what the bible says. In that church he discovered that many of the elderly members did not know the difference between the old and new testaments!
He tried to preach from the bible and after a year was fired. They knew better than him. They were using the understanding they acquired in Vacation Bible School and never grew beyond that. And they were ALL OVER the fire and brimstone thing.
BTW, I was a believer in that theology as well, until about two years ago. I’m constantly fascinated by how much I discover I DIDN’T know about a biblical concept on which I’ve had an opinion for many years until I go into deep study of it. This has resulted in a 180 degree turnaround in some cases and a significant tweeking of details in others.
But in all cases it solidifies my understanding of, and belief in the grace message, which is the singularly unique cornerstone of Christianity. Or, should I say, Capstone.
You mentioned almost converting to Mormonism, so you probably have an idea about what they believe about Jesus. Though I can be tolerant towards their right to believe what they want, I will not give approval for their false doctrines. There are certain truths that are nonnegotiable - truths that we KNOW make up what it means to be a Christian and that God has made clear in Scripture. And the LDS version of the Bible, I would hope, is not one that you would "tolerate” to one degree or another.
I welcome discussion on doctrines of the faith and think we should all be able to dialog with each other without rancor and hurt feelings. We should be confident enough in our positions on doctrines to be fully able to defend them if asked. Like Paul told Timothy, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (II Tim. 3:16,17) and Peter said, "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience" (I Peter 3:15,16)
I hope you have a good weekend.