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Please visit over here:

Meanwhile, about Jamnia, note that I wrote ""IF" it could be said..." I regret not having made the "iffiness" of this reputed council even more explicit. I cannot vouch for the historicity of what is called the "Council of Jamnia" --- and so it's even more nebulous as to why the Masoretic canon should be preferred to the Septugint canon.

I do think the authenticity of the LXX rests, not on our objections against this "iffy," historically dubious "Council of Jamnia," but on the fact that 80% of the OT quotes found in the NT itself, are taken from the LXX.

I don't think ou can throw out the LXX without throwing out the NT. It's very obviously the version of Scripture that the Evangelists and the Epistle-writers used. St. Paul tells Timothy, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...", and the Scripture he quotes in his own Epistles is the LXX. "ALL Scripture therefore is not limited to just the 39-book "short version" OT. The LXX also includes the 7 books you call Apocrypha.

And I renew my plea to wmfights: You say "Christians preserved the Bible, not the Catholic church. The same Christians that the Catholic church persecuted."

Both the Catholics and the Orthodox have faithfully preserved, and taught from, the LXX, just as the Apostles did. So, are you saying that it was some other group of Christians (other than the Cath/Orthodox) who were preserving the Bible? I would like to know more. Who were they?...When did this ancient "Bible preserving" happen, apart from the Catholic Church? and where? Did they produce an official 66 Book OT/NT Canon? When was the earliest 66-Book Canon list written and where is it to be found?

You can see I am eager to know more about your historic Bible sources.

Eak perked (\..\)

P.S. again, check this out: Must! See! Thread! (Link)

I'm not going with some imagined "80%" of the quotes nonsense. Not for one second. But nice try.

Just recently I saw a long list of such "quotes", and could readily see that most all in which I had strong familiarity with, could be derived from the Hebrew canon, in fact most needed to be for sake of contextual deeper meanings, tying together broader themes, even if some form of "repeat" of those words and phrases could be in the works referred to as apocryphal.

Those wishing to make the "80%" claim, might do well to dig deep and see how much of that can be easily enough falsifiable (otherwise found in Hebrew canon).

I lay that duty not to your own charge, but more as a precautionary note.

Why should things be seen as nebulous? Are we to believe the Jews lost their own Holy Writ? Even as we have clear enough indications there was resistance and complaint on their account that works such as the Septuagint went beyond what they considered to be Hebrew canon, in that first century or so after Christ?

What of Jerome? And Before him Melito (which we have no real real extant texts for, but mention and quotes from him, significant to this discussion by Jerome).

I do not believe there is any listing of what is to be considered Old Testament outside of Judaism, earlier than Melito. he died in 180 A.D.

What of Josephus? I sure do enjoy using him as a secular proof for the life and death of Christ, with Josephus also including brief comment as to the dispute over what happened to "the body" which parallels strongly what we see in the New Testament.

I'll go and check the link... yet I can hardly imagine the questions I raise again [repeat, sorry] here will be sufficiently addressed.

Thank you for your kind and polite reply. I'm not certain I deserve such, but I have noticed that you are quite polite as habit, and I do respect and appreciate that, even as we can have some small matters of disagreement.

I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation! Thank you all so very much for sharing your insights!

Two things come to mind.

First, I believe that Alexander the Great's conquest of the civilized world was God's will (Daniel 11) and among the results was that it paved the way for the rapid spread of Christianity.

More specifically, Alexander caused the Greek language to be normalized throughout the civilized world. Since most understood that language, the Greek translations of Hebrew Scripture were needful. Indeed, the translation followed his conquering of the known civilized world.

Moreover, normalizing the Greek language entailed normalizing word concepts such as "Logos" which is the root of God's Name Word - Jesus Christ - and also the root of the word 'logic.'

Indeed, it facilitated His Name being published to man:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3

It is therefore not surprising that the LXX was quoted so often. The language was understood. It is also not surprising that the New Testament was written in that language.

Second, God's hand in the Hebrew language and Scripture cannot be ignored.

The Essenes resisted the Greek influence and withdrew from that society, copying and preserving Hebrew Scriptures which were discovered in 1946, the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Their discovery occurred about the same time as the Jews were restored to their homeland after a 2,000 year diaspora. That event along with the fact that the Hebrew language was preserved all that time was obviously the hand of God.

"Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous." - Einstein

I believe the Dead Sea Scrolls are also part of God's planned revelations.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4

Among other things, the scrolls evidence the true antiquity and faithfulness of Hebrew Scriptures and writings.

But there's more. As if to say the Hebrew Scriptures are more important than the Greek for eternity, the Name of God, The Rock, was lost in translation of the Song of Moses to the Greek and thereafter to the Latin.

Translations of Deuteronomy 32:4

English from Hebrew (Masoretic)

[He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

tsuwr po`al tamiym derek mishpat 'el 'emuwnah `evel tsaddiyq yashar

English from the Greek (Septuagint)

As for God, His works are true, and all His ways are justice. God is faithful and there is no unrighteousness in Him; just and holy is the Lord.

English from Latin (Vulgate)

The works of God are perfect, and all his ways are judgments: God is faithful and without any iniquity, he is just and right.

Dei perfecta sunt opera et omnes viae eius iudicia Deus fidelis et absque ulla iniquitate iustus et rectus

So one might wonder what the big deal is about one of "minor" Names of God.

In my view, no Name of God is minor. But this Name, The Rock, was specifically published in the Song of Moses and is specifically a Name of Christ. And the Song of Moses will be sung in heaven along with the Song of the Lamb:

Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. - Deut 31:19

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. – Deu 32:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. - I Cor 10:1-4

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. – Rev 15:2-4

And so, my two cents are that we should recognize the Greek translation as God's will for one age but the Hebrew translation as God's will for all ages.

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. - Psalms 12:6-7

God's Name is I AM.