Posted on 07/21/2012 3:08:36 PM PDT by NYer
Let us examine this a bit. I understand that the likelihood of immediate conversion of the worthy MK was low. But even so, we would not call it "provocation"; the word implies a degree of imbecility on the part of the one provoked. You don't provoke a hostage taker, or a fierce animal, or a spoiled child. When a holy book is sent to someone of distinction, like a parliamentarian, who is of the elite body that impacts the lives and the rights of many people, some of them Christian, then I don't see how the term "provocation" applies, -- unless we are not to afford Israeli leaders any presumption of decency and intelligence.
I suggest the honorable MK read the Gospels quietly, -- it is available on the Internet, -- and educate himself of the ethical norms the rest of the world takes as guidance. That might help him in his legislative work.
I hope I am not offending someone.
Guess I better get up and go riot somewhere. Need to stop at Starbucks first for coffee however. Maybe look at new running shoes also.
But gotta get that riot on the calender sometime. Maybe I’ll go run around the yard and yell something?
It is true that Jews are supposed to die rather than engage in idol worship and that all Jews should have simply said "no" and gone elsewhere. But people everywhere are complex, and people don't always do what they should do. For whatever reason, some Spanish Jews underwent phony "conversions" so they could continue to live where they were and then, in guilt or for whatever reason, kept the Mitzvot in secret. But they never should have given the choice of conversion or expulsion to begin with (though G-d may have meant it as a lesson that Jews' only home is 'Eretz Yisra'el). The most important thing here is that the Inquisition in exposing these confused and miserable people thought it was destroying a "Jewish plot" to convert Spain to Judaism. That very notion is laughable. Besides, don't you know that when Jews want to take over a country they print money and fluoridate the water? ;-)
I also am on your and the Catholic side in opposing religious freedom in an absolute sense. Absolute religious freedom assumes that no one can actually be sure of anything, that we'll only learn the truth when we die, so how dare anyone force the conscience of anyone else? The world's only Theocracy (the one in the Bible) never worked like this. Idolatry was a capital offense and holy wars were commanded against certain idolatrous peoples. This was certainly not Lockean Protestant freedom. So calm down, okay? 'Scool, brah.
As for "pitching a bigoted tantrum on the floor of the Kenesset," it's indeed a rare thing when a Catholic FReeper defends the right of Fundamentalist Protestants (which is what the Israeli "Bible Society" is) to pester folks with Bibles and tracts. I somehow got the idea that Catholics went into shock requiring hospitalization on the sight of a "fundie" tract under a windshield wiper. They certainly act as if such thing were an atrocity that should be outlawed by the UN with all the screaming and complaining and crying of "bigotry!" and "inbred morons!" they engage in on such occasions. Apparently the Fundamentalist Proselytization that is a sign of mental retardation and a crime against humanity when aimed at Catholics becomes sacred and defensible christian love when Jews are targeted. I'm going to have to mark this date down as a red letter day . . . a Catholic has defended proselytization by brain-dead, bibliolatrous fundies. Maybe, like ignorant trailer park rednecks, Jews are the special province of Fundamentalist Protestantism?
And finally, as to the final charge (that Israel survives only because of chrstian support), I'm going to have to stop playing around and get serious. Israel survives because of G-d, not because of man. As much as I love Fundamentalist Protestants, they are still trapped in a false religion and their influence on Israel needs to be nil, other than on a defense of Israel's Biblical origins and rights. They don't have any business proselytizing Jews in Israel or anywhere else. Instead of Israel surviving because of them, it may very well be the only reason Obama hasn't rounded them all up and put them in concentration camps is as a reward for their support of Jews and Israel.
Finally, American-style Fundamentalist Protestants are the only chrstians in the world and in history who support Jews and Israel. Classical chrstianity does not and never has. All the ancient churches (including Roman Catholicism) are pro-Arab and anti-Israel, and the "indigenous" Middle Eastern chrstians are the most anti-Semitic chrstians on earth today. In fact, Middle Eastern chrstians (both ancient and Protestant) have loudly denounced "chrstian Zionism" as not being chrstianity at all and disclaimed any fellowship with FP's. This hardly counts as "chrstians supporting Israel."
You are very mistaken. The principles of western democracy are based upon Christianity and every major war of the 20th century and the wars of the last decade have ultimately religious wars between Christianity and the godless.
Peace be with you.
I gotta admire your tenacity. “It’s a known law, Esau hates Jacob.” Christianity and neo-pagan Western Civilization ooze Jew-hate, they wouldn’t be what they are without it. No arguments will change those committed to it.
Persecute and murder Jews, and then when a few escape and manage to thrive, scream at them to be grateful that any survived, and that that survival depended only on their persecutors and murderers!
It only proves the teaching that evil’s main characteristic is chutzpah.
So who are we traitors to?
Interesting your source just focuses on the actions of this lone MK and omits the official response to this putz:
“Government spokesman Mark Regev said, “We totally deplore this behavior and condemn it outright. This action stands in complete contrast to our values and our traditions. Israel is a tolerant society, but we have zero tolerance for this despicable and hateful act.”
Or this from his own party:
“it’s shocking that someone like that is a member of Knesset. One could compare his actions to those of an extreme MP abroad tearing up the Bible. We would all cry out if that happened,” he said.
“These people are starved for Jewish truth! They actually want to be Jewish. The chrstianity they’re trying to “restore” is an ahistorical, “Jewish chrstianity,” not the real thing. As stubborn, shortsighted, and naive as they can be, they are not evil. They are not “the enemy.” Yes, they have to be watched carefully and they are not going to save Israel (only HaShem will do that). But they aren’t evil. And for all the arguing I do with them on this forum I still say that.”
I think this is true, except I think from their movement will form a large conversion of people into Jews, as these are not the type of people to do things half way and have a sincere love of G-d.
“Just curious, why the G-d?”
If nothing else, politeness. The Name of G-d (in any language) is to be treated carefully and with respect. This was understood by Christian translators of the Torah and why the tetragrammaton, for example, was so carefully “not written.”
Here:
http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm
I don't know what His Majesty thought. Another possibility was that they would be the Fifth column for the Caliphate, which basically treated them much better. I understand the marranos' dilemma, but that is beside the point. The issue is that what Spain did in 17c. with the Church's blessing should not be a reason to shred the New Testament publicly today, in a country that is supposed to be a beacon of civilization down there in the sands.
it's indeed a rare thing when a Catholic FReeper defends the right of Fundamentalist Protestants
Why should it be rare? First, I would condemn just the same any form of vandalism, including that against the Koran or the Talmud, or the Afghanistan Buddhas or what have you. Second, we and the Evangelicals are both Christians; while a Catholic missionary would not perhaps use the same methods, on this score at least, conversion of the Jews (and of the Arabs, and of the Noahides, and of the Buddhists), our goals are the same. In fact, the idea that a religion should not proselytize is a testimony to its internalized, although never admitted, falsehood. Maybe that is the real reason why you haven't met throngs of fellow Noahides yet.
Israel survives because of G-d, not because of man.
Israel, to a Catholic, is the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church, and she survives just fine, for that precise reason, thank you. M'dinat Israel survives because of American assistance, and is chiefly due to the Evangelical Christian support (the Vatican, wisely, calls for a two-state solution, as was the original UN plan, so you can count Catholics as another reason M'dinat Israel exists).
Score.
it's indeed a rare thing when a Catholic FReeper defends the right of Fundamentalist Protestants
Why should it be rare?
That is something you will have to explain to me. I've often wondered why the Catholic Church (in America at least) seemed to be waging a bigger war against "Biblical literalism" than against abortion.
In fact, the idea that a religion should not proselytize is a testimony to its internalized, although never admitted, falsehood. Maybe that is the real reason why you haven't met throngs of fellow Noahides yet.
That's downright hilarious, seeing as how the Catholic Church not only doesn't proselyitize but actually condemns proselytary religion as "bigotry." My own journey to the Catholic Church was initiated by myself because, unlike every other church and denomination, the Catholic Church doesn't engage in proselytary activity. It is for all practical purposes an ethnic religion for Irish, Italians, Hispanics, etc. The Baptists, the CoC, the mormons, the J Witnesses, the Pentecostals, and every Protestant denomination you can think of will give you a tract or knock on your door, but the Catholic Church is too sophisticated and too ethnic to ever do such a thing. If the Catholic Church proselytizes, why was I never able to get a priest to speak to my mother about joining me in it?
Besides, according to some FReepers, Catholicism is too intellectual for the morons who live in rural America. Obviously a religion for sophisticates and intellectuals isn't going to advertise itself. One will have to ask to join, like a Masonic lodge.
The other ancient churches are even worse than Roman Catholicism with regard to proselyitism. The Copts, Armenians, Assyrians, Ethiopians, etc., however missionary their origins, keep going only via sexual reproduction. Outside the world of American Fundamentalism the words "chrstian proselytism" are an oxymoron.
Israel, to a Catholic, is the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church
Thank you for reminding me of another reason I left (though your statement almost makes me physically ill). I don't suppose you've seen this thread?
The English word "perfidious" means "prone to breaking promises, dealing underhandedly, treacherous, sneaky" etc.
The Latin word "perfidaeis" simply means "breaking with/from the faith" and does not carry the same broad and nasty connotations as the later English word.
The prayer is essentially saying that these people who have broken with the covenant should reestablish it.
And, by the way, if this man believes that ripping up a printed translation of the NT is going to injure Christianity, then he knows a lot less than he thinks he does.
While what you say is true, what I was referring to was the reduction of the temporal power and authority of religious leadership. When a king's authority to remain king was dependent upon the Pope agreeing that he was the rightful king, then anything which undermined the Pope's authority also undermined the king's legitimacy in the minds of his subjects.
You do point out something interesting: from the founding of the US, the political leadership needed to present themselves as being decent and moral. The Left has been undermining that requirement with patient persistence over the last century, but particularly since the 60's.
You are totally correct. The Spanish rulers who instituted the Spanish Inquisition had no concern whatsoever that the Jews of Spain would convert Christians to Judaism.
What they WERE concerned about was that Muslims and Jews who had allegedly converted to Christianity were secretly supporters of the Muslims that they had only recently managed to wrest the Iberian Peninsula back from, and would act as collaborators with Islamic forces attempting reconquest of Spain.
I don't see any evidence of that. There are continuing efforts to condemn abortion and get the relevant legislation changed: Rosaries prayed near abortion clinics, marches are marched, homilies are said, every parish has a pro-life group of activists; countries where the Church has significant influence on politics have better anti-abortion legislation; the outside world sees the Catholic Church as a number one force against abortion. The dispute about Bible interpretation is an internal Christian dispute; you see it a lot on FR because pro-aborts don't post on FR and Protestants do. I don't think I heard a single homily on the topic of scriptural literalism or even generally on the errors of Protestantism. You also seem to not distinguish between proper scriptural literalism, which the Church holds, and the false doctrine of Bible Alone, which the Church condemns.
I also see plenty of evidence of you trying to switch any thread to a discussion of creationism.
It is for all practical purposes an ethnic religion for Irish, Italians, Hispanics, etc. The Baptists, the CoC, the mormons, the J Witnesses, the Pentecostals, and every Protestant denomination you can think of will give you a tract or knock on your door, but the Catholic Church is too sophisticated and too ethnic to ever do such a thing.
Well, I am Russian (with a Jewish grandfather). Nobody knocked on my door; people find the Church because they look for Christ. I agree that the Catholics must evangelize more.
I remember a Baptist pastor knocked on my door inviting me and my family to his Church. A vivid conversation ensued in which I explained to him that I have been born again in my infancy as my mother baptized me in the Russian Orthodox Church. I also showed him how the Bible supports the Catholic and the Protestant doctrine and does not support his theories. Then I asked him if he wants to continue the debate, -- done strictly on the basis of the truncated Bible he was holding, -- in his house of worship where he had invited me. I am still waiting. However, it was brave for that man to look for parishioners door-to-door and Catholics should follow his example.
The Copts, Armenians, Assyrians, Ethiopians, etc
They live in Muslim world or next to it, which prohibits proselytism (the honorable MK might consider moving); their goal is plain survival.
according to some FReepers, Catholicism is too intellectual for the morons who live in rural America
You mean, I (not "some Freepers") said on a number of occasions that Protestantism is an error that comes from poor education. Not quite the same. If your reference is to someone else (Wideawake? Alex, help!) it would be best if you pinged that person.
your statement almost makes me physically ill
Why?
If nothing else, politeness. The Name of G-d (in any language) is to be treated carefully and with respect. This was understood by Christian translators of the Torah and why the tetragrammaton, for example, was so carefully “not written.”
For these same reasons i do not call my dad father, because there is only one father.
I understand and thanks.
If nothing else, politeness. The Name of G-d (in any language) is to be treated carefully and with respect. This was understood by Christian translators of the Torah and why the tetragrammaton, for example, was so carefully “not written.”
For these same reasons i do not call my dad father, because there is only one father.
I understand and thanks.
Annalex, Annalex, Annalex . . . why do you want to do this?
I have always rejected sola scriptura on this forum. I have not subscribed to that doctrine since I converted to Catholicism during 1983-'84. And I have often found myself having to scold Catholic FReepers for confusing Biblical literalism with that doctrine. Because a person insists the events of Genesis 1-11 took place exactly as written has nothing to do with sola scritpura--absolutely nothing. And for you to imply that "creationism" depends on the doctrine of sola scriptura is beneath you, really.
The Catholic Church teaching that the first eleven chapters of Genesis never happened, that they are adopted from ancient Babylonian and Canaanite mythology (along with similar beliefs about the Book of Daniel being a pseudepigraph from the Hasmonean era) were invented from whole cloth by nineteenth century liberal Protestants in Germany. That's right--Protestants who believe in sola scriptura. But the Catholic Church never attacks liberal Protestantism. Instead it holds ecumenical get-togethers with them where they discuss what a lie the Bible is. Then it attacks Fundamentalist Protestantism as if it were the Fundamentalism, and not the Protestantism, that was the error.
You mean, I (not "some Freepers") said on a number of occasions that Protestantism is an error that comes from poor education.
I mean no such thing. Catholic FReepers have in the past insulted Protestants by claiming that Catholicism requires an intellectual acumen that Protestants don't possess and can't appropriate (as opposed, I suppose, to all those illiterate peasants in Guatemala and Honduras). They have been called "brain-dead bibliolators." And I have even read in Catholic papers that G-d in his mercy allowed Fundamentalist Protestantism to arise to take care of the poor slobs who don't have the brains to process historical criticism or evolution. In fact, this is exactly why I couldn't get anyone to speak to my mother about joining. She was a rural Southerner with a sixth grade education who grew up during the Great Depression and the Baptist church was good enough for her. Kindly spare me your righteous indignation. Wideawake was pinged solely as a witness (if he chose to be, or to argue against it) that the Catholic Church today keeps going by reproduction and not by any missionary activity. Alex was pinged simply because I scolded him recently for attacking the idea of an inquisition against liberal Catholics which I personally would love to see. They are pinged here solely because I mentioned them.
your statement almost makes me physically ill
Why?
Because of the hubris in claiming that the Catholic Church, or any other body, is the "new Israel." Israel is defined and described in the Torah and the Na"KH. To insist that any other body can qualify for that designation is like moslems claiming that Abraham practiced islam. And though I usually don't say such things, anyone who can make such a claim after two millenia of trying to cause Israel to disappear from the earth via conversion to a foreign religion or extermination is a very gutsy person (and not in a good way).
“For these same reasons i do not call my dad father, because there is only one father.”
Closer in concept to calling your dad “Frank” (or whatever his first name is). Just rude and undermining of his authority.
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