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To: OneWingedShark; RnMomof7
"If we draw your theology into a parallel with governance then either the State is sovereign and you have no free-will (ala ObamaCare), or the mere act of being able to choose whether to eat "bad fats and sugars" nullifies the sovereignty of the State."

Well, Paul and Peter disagree with you, my FRiend.

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, sattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are CHOSEN ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF God the Father, by the sanctifying work of thw Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood..." "...for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to HIS CHOICE MIGHT STAND, NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS, but because of HIM WHO CALLS."..."So then, it does not depend on the man who wills (CHOOSES) or the man who runs (WORKS), but on God who has mercy,"..."So then, He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

Of course, Paul heard your same arguments back in the first century, "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" Obviously, they have proven that it cannot be this way! After all, this would not be fair. May want to check Paul's answer. Too bad, folks. Get over it, God can do whatever He wants and it is perfectly just, because He is the definition of just. Or do you wish to stand in judgment upon Him?

Yes, the free will argument is as old as man. Free will is a myth man concocted to derive a sense of independence from God, a freedom that is non-existent. And, when confronted by its error, recently the charge is thrown up, "This is nothing but Islam!". Sorry, God's management is biblical. Islam is an error of Satan as surely as "free will". Of course, God is managing and using it for His purpose, but we are told to identify it as wrongheaded.

And, of course we have heard the, "Well, are you saying God made a mistake then?" Not at all. The ones displaying the mistake are the agents He is using. And they are everywhere. Nevertheless, just as the darkened Jews were used to crucify the Hope of Israel by the plan and management of God, the unfortunate blame will be laid at the feet of the Jews and Romans, Muslims and "free willers".

Who made up the rule that one cannot be blamed for something one is compelled to do? Where exactly does that passage exist? How does blame transfer to Adam's progeny knowing that he is the only one who actually did it? We must let the text teach us, not the other way round. The Almighty is Holy and Just.

63 posted on 07/12/2012 10:55:54 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; ShadowAce; RnMomof7
God can do whatever He wants and it is perfectly just, because He is the definition of just.

God cannot do whatever He wants and be perfectly just; for example He cannot lie nor break a promise, for to do so would be both unjust and dishonorable.
It is precisely because God is Just that He cannot do such things.

Free will is a myth man concocted to derive a sense of independence from God, a freedom that is non-existent.

Again you say that free-will is mutually exclusive of both God's sovereignty and his omnipotence. If man is made in God's image, then man must have a will, for a will is requisite for personhood; further, if that will is not free, then mankind cannot be made in God's image because the lack of such freedom would make man utterly unlike God. (Note: "free will" does not mean "cannot be influenced", or unbounded by reality, or un-predisposed -- why, even God was willing to be influenced, because of his gracious nature, by Abraham regarding Sodom and Gomorrah was He not? Or was the change from 50 to eventually even 10 empty words from God? [Genesis 18:16-33])

And, when confronted by its error, recently the charge is thrown up, "This is nothing but Islam!". Sorry, God's management is biblical. Islam is an error of Satan as surely as "free will". Of course, God is managing and using it for His purpose, but we are told to identify it as wrongheaded.

Managing and micro-managing are two widely different things; though you may not know it.
Managing allows the inferior to act with some self-determination, that is free-will, and bear the responsibility for such.
Micro-managing is so offensive because it is making the will and competence of the managed to no effect; thereby dishonoring the managed and stripping him of [exercise/recognition of] one of the basic acknowledgements of personhood (free will).

For man to have no free will, God would have to micro-manage everyone's lives, and if God were to do so then He would be denying that they were real persons. Perhaps people call your theology [similar to] Islam is because it really is quite similar: mankind is only a clot, there is no free-will, and only those on Allah's "good list" (which is arbitrarily decided by him) get anything good.

70 posted on 07/12/2012 4:17:05 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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