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To: HarleyD
Actually Calvin states that man has free will. It just that it tends to be driven towards evil.

"Tends"? You're tending to leave Calvinism when you stray from totally depraved.

People here keep saying man has "free will" yet they fail to explain WHY they don't follow Christ completely.

Because we are not perfect. We can grow towards it as Christ teaches us. We are finite, subject to the imperfections and constant change of all things finite. We begin life as a mass of instincts, but being human we grow to more than this. We fail, we learn, we struggle, we grow, we fail again. We choose: love or hate; God or evil. Then we much choose again...

But because we are not perfect does not mean we do not have free will. (Neither does not being able to flap wings and fly if we choose to.)

And not being perfect does not mean we are totally depraved. Calvinism is full of non sequiturs.

Even as a Christian I do the things I don't want to do and the very things I should do, I don't do them. This is the nature of our hearts.

Not your heart Harley. A little lower. :)

God is in our heart - He is our being. Our hearts do not rest until they rest in Him. God created humans in His image. Calvinism tries to reduce man back to animal, instinctual only, incapable of choosing his heart - and returning God's love.

But then why would anyone love a God that 'raises up' a Hitler to kill millions to teach us a lesson?

Calvinism has an capricious and injust god; it's portrayal of man more closely resembles a base animal.

Religion, in general terms, concerns who God is, who man is, and the relationship between them. When Calvinism gets the first wrong, and the second wrong - the third becomes error compounded.

211 posted on 06/24/2012 7:42:33 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
Because we are not perfect.

If we're not perfect, then we are depraved in the eyes of God.

HD-People here keep saying man has "free will" yet they fail to explain WHY they don't follow Christ completely.

D-F-Because we are not perfect. ...We choose: love or hate; God or evil. Then we much choose again...

If we as Christians KNOW what is right and can freely choose, then WHY do we choose to do evil? A free choice is EXACTLY that, rationalizing a decision and following through. If Christians simply could say, "Hmmm...should I do this thing of God or should I do this thing Satan wants?", given a free choice what do you think a Christian would say? What would you say? I know what I would say.

But we are not given a "choice" per se. Someone buys a fancy sports car and ***POP*** into our minds we think "Oooooohhhhhh how we would like to have something like that." Someone is promoted over us and ***POP*** into our minds we think "Oooooohhhhh how dare they because we could do the job better then they can." We just broken the 10 Commandment-not to covet.

Yes, not being perfect DOES mean we are depraved creatures. God wants us perfect and we are not. His Spirit cannot strive with us because we are not perfect. We are CONSTANTLY breaking God's commandments throughout the day, every day.

But then why would anyone love a God that 'raises up' a Hitler to kill millions to teach us a lesson?

I don't claim to know the plans of the Lord God Almighty, however after WWII there was a period of time that many flocked back to the churches as well as the Iron Curtain dropping and persecution began. It was also the time when Israel was reformed as a nation. Do you think its a coincident that people begin questioning God or their need for God in the time of great trials? Look at what happens on this board everytime there's a tornado or hurricane. Up pop 10 posts as to "Why would God allow this to happen?"

Calvinism has an capricious and injust god; it's portrayal of man more closely resembles a base animal.

That's an opinion more than an analysis. There is nothing capricious or unjust about God. What is the failings of "free will" is it fails to recognize the wickedness of man. Instead we heard the, "God loves us. OOPS, you sinned. Well, that's OK because God REALLY LOVE YOU. We're just not perfect" What dribble. God the Father is far more interested in making us in the image of His Son, one who was willing to show compassion to the downtrodden but also willing to take whips to those who defiled the Father's name. He is perfectly willing to give us a good swift kick in the pants to get us to do what He wants us to do-and rightfully should He.

Those who truly believe that they have a choice to sin or not, then they shouldn't sin and they should offer up no excuses. Or they should recognize how their doctrine doesn't really match what actually goes on in their lives.

255 posted on 06/25/2012 6:02:03 PM PDT by HarleyD
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