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To: CTrent1564
Your post is either an outright misreprensation of the facts or you are ignorant of said facts. Now you know better In addition, your statements that the Catholic Church is in contradiction with the early Church Fathers, Please tell me and give me examples.

Oh, please. I'm not contradicting anything nor am I'm misrepresenting anything. At time I often wonder if Catholics ever read their dictionary. Here is a few examples you requested:

Here is just a small excerpt from the topic of the atonement on NewAdvent:

Not only was the view of the atonement changed from the early fathers because of their "confusion" but it was modified from Anselms work which was done many centuries later. I don't see anyone arguing that the early fathers were confused about the Eucharist.

On justification

I would add that on this last one New Advent talks about how the "heretics" believed in justification by faith but they were the ones who were pointing to the early writings. New Advent can only justify it's position by quoting from the Council of Trent 1500 years later. And the Council of Trent has no writings on which to justify it position on saved by faith and not by works. Thus the discount any early writings on justification by faith including those of Augustine.

These are but two examples.

111 posted on 06/14/2012 6:26:39 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

HarleyD:

You obviously are not comprehending Council of Trent as nowhere does it teach salvation by works, that is what you want to believe but it is false. Trent in no way contradicted the Fathers of the Church as its view of justification are in line with St. Thomas Aquinas, who is the lens thru which most of Trent was articulaed in and Aquinas was in line with Augustine.

As for your view of the Atonement, St. Anselm as a “Catholic” born in Italy and sent to England by the Pope. His theory of the atonement is legitimate but not to the exclusion of others. As the article you linked also clearl points out that any theory of Atonement has to connect the Paschal Mystery with the Incarnation, which was the first theory of atonement and the ones that the early Fathers of the Church articulated, i.e. The Victor Christ theory which is expressed by the Fathers going back to the Recapitulation theory posited by St. Justin Martyr and Ireneaus.

The Ransom theory is not one that is acceptable by the Catholic Church nor is the Penal Substitution theory of Calvin which went far beyond Amselms theory of Satisfaction. Calvins theory is rooted in Punishment to appease God’s Anger and Justice, which goes against the theology of the Incarnation which Christ became Incarnate of the Virgin Mary because of his Love for Humanity.

So you are misrepresenting the Catholic Position and you don’t understand the article you linked. It clearly states than any acceptable theory of atonement can’t be seperated from Divine Incarnation and it was the idea of Incarnation as God becoming Man to restore Man back to his state before fall because of his Love for man, as St. Paul states, even while we were sinners, God still loved us [Letter to the Romans].

The theory of Atonement was not changed. It was developed by both the early Fathers of the CHurch and their theory of Atonement and St. Anselms theory [He is a Doctor of the Catholic Church and part of the Benedectine Tradition] are both acceptable and seen as complements, not in compiition.

The Antinomianist cited in the article you linked were part of the early Gnostic Movements and those groups and their theology were correctly labeled as heretics. So yes, the Faith alone mantra that Luther and Calvin posited did have some adherents in the early Church, but the groups positing that theory were Gnostics.


116 posted on 06/14/2012 8:13:35 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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