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To: boatbums
"Maybe the only history about the Bible you know is the Roman Catholic version of it, but I expected better of one who claims to be a student of history."

There are several points of history that must be considered. You are free to draw your own conclusion, but not free to claim that conclusion is completely valid if the data you considered was incomplete or inaccurate.

- Jesus ministry lasted about three years during which time He taught not only the Apostles and a cadre of Disciples, but preached and performed miracles in front of many thousands of witnesses, both friendly and hostile.

- Following His resurrection Jesus instructed His Apostles and Disciples to preach the Gospel to every nation and people which they diligently did at great personal risk.

- At the Pentecost the Apostles and Disciples were given the gift of tongues, not some incoherent babbling, but the actual ability to fluently speak languages they did not know such that they were able to preach the Gospel to all corners of the earth.

- Nowhere is Scripture does it record Jesus or any of His followers writing anything down, carrying any writing materials, or provide any instructions to actually produce any written documentation after the fact.

- Nowhere in Scripture is there a reference to a Bible, a table of contents of a Bible, or a set Canon criteria or process.

- There are numerous specific references to a Church with a mission, a hierarchy and structure, and an authorization.

- The Church functioned for over 300 years without a Bible, relying on Tradition. In fact, so prevalent were fraudulent and compromised versions of the Gospels and the Letters that the actual production of the Bible was met with a great deal of skepticism and it was only the authority of the Church that made them credible and acceptable to Christendom.

- The works selected for the Bible were based only upon their being judged inerrant when compared to the Tradition of the Church.

- The Canon was set by the Church, repeatedly reaffirmed by the Church and remained unchanged and unchallenged for over 1200 years.

- Now you can form an opinion as to whether the Church deviated over time from its initial teachings, but you cannot credibly claim that the Bible came about ex nihilo and that the Catholic Church never had a role or an association with its production.

- Since we all agree that Scripture is indeed God Breathed and infallible it is evidence that the Church was an instrument of the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you.

700 posted on 05/29/2012 12:36:40 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
I believe you have answered your own contentions with a very, cleaned up, polished and slanted viewpoint. Though some of your points are true - and which I do not disagree - your last point should be seen for the true clincher it is. You stated:

    Since we all agree that Scripture is indeed God Breathed and infallible it is evidence that the Church was an instrument of the Holy Spirit.

No one disputes the role of the church (small 'c') in the revelation we STILL have from God's breath. But if you really accept that Holy Scripture comes from God as well as being INFALLIBLE, then you must also accept that it is that with or without man's acceptance of it. It is the Truth from God no matter who acknowledges it or rejects it. We already know from Scripture that the natural (unregenerated) man does not receive the things of God nor can he know them, but does that mean it ceases to BE the word of God? No.

There have been many "religious" men and women over the years - including today - who discount the absolute truth of what the Bible says. They claim it is outdated or old fashioned and won't work for today. But I think we both agree that they are wrong because God's truth transcends time - truth is truth. For this reason I contend that Scripture is the authority by which truth claims are measured and not that Scripture is measured by an authority of man's opinions of what is truth. If the Apostle Peter can call his contemporary and fellow Apostle Paul's writings Scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16), then I do not see how it can be correctly asserted that nobody accepted the books of the Bible until the "Church" presented them in a nice, neatly bound volume with an official seal placed in the front three hundred or so years later. I stand by my conviction that the Bible we have today is what God chose to give us and no matter the method He used it would STILL be His word today. The word of our God stands forever.

770 posted on 05/29/2012 8:27:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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