Posted on 05/10/2012 4:23:42 PM PDT by wmfights
Do you believe there will be a Tribulation?
Yes. Scripture teaches there will be, the only question is timing
Do you believe Born Again Christians will live through the Tribulation, or be taken away before or during it?
I believe Born Again Christians (that's the only kind), will live through the first 3.5 years of Tribulation, which is to say, Satan's wrath. I believe we will be caught up at the mid-point, at which the wrath of God begins to fall upon the earth So even though I believe Christians won't experience God's wrath on the earth, my reading shows that the first 3.5 years are the result of Satan being allowed to wreck havoc.
When Jesus establishes his Millennial Reign are the survivors of the Tribulation the same as the resurrected saints?
That's a point that seems a bit esoteric, because as they say, "all the shoot'n is over with" at that point. I don't have an opinion here because I have not studied it, and don't find it particularly interesting compared to other end time events.
The OT tells us that during the Messianic Reign that Temple practices will be instituted, why?
I have not studied much about the 1000 year reign, sorry I can't offer an answer to this question!.
Do you believe there will be a Tribulation?
A: Have no doubts about it...
Do you believe Born Again Christians will live through the Tribulation, or be taken away before or during it?
A: Before...Although there is room for a limited mid Tribulation resurrection...
When Jesus establishes his Millennial Reign are the survivors of the Tribulation the same as the resurrected saints?
A: No...The resurrected Saints will be celestial beings...Those who live thru the tribulation on into the Millennium will still be terrestial beings...
The resurrected Saints will be the bride of Christ...The terrestial beings will not...
The OT tells us that during the Messianic Reign that Temple practices will be instituted, why?
A: That requires a long answer to be totally comprehensible...But the short answer is that men and women will be born (as children) during the Millennium and God will still require an atoning sacrifice...
The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth prior to the Tribulation along with the church...There will be no more indwelling of the Spirit within the believer...
There will be no more 'new man' nor fruits of the Spirit...
Jesus will then become the King of Kings and Lord of Lords...He will be a physical ruler of a physical kingdom; not a spiritual kingdom as we now know it...
Faith and works will then be required for salvation at the last judgment...
Do you believe there will be a Tribulation?
It doesn't matter if there will be some special "Tribulation" or not. Christians have been going through tribulation throughout the centuries and will until Christ return. We were promised that all who live a godly life will face persecution. And though some of us might not seem to have much in the way of overt persecution, there is persecution in our lives. Christ promises to be with us in our tribulations. So what difference does any other kind of "Tribulation" means to us?
Do you believe Born Again Christians will live through the Tribulation, or be taken away before or during it?
Again, it doesn't matter. But when Christ return we will be caught up with Him. That will be that.
The OT tells us that during the Messianic Reign that Temple practices will be instituted, why?
Could you be a bit more specific? The Old Testament also tells us that God has NO delight in the sacrifices of goats and bulls. The New Testament tells us that Christ paid the perfect sacrifice. There is no need for any other sacrifice.
If people would really like to know what the purpose was of sacrificing all those goats and bulls, I would suggest reading the requirements of Leviticus 5.
Lev 5:4 or if anyone utters with his lips a rash oath to do evil or to do good, any sort of rash oath that people swear, and it is hidden from him, when he comes to know it, and he realizes his guilt in any of these;
Why, people would be sacrificing all day and all night long. They could never stop until they went broke with the buying of goats. As soon as they sacrifice one goat they be back because they do something rash again. That's our nature. In the end the large volume of stench and filth and hideous blood and entrails would be appalling enough to make one sick and beg God's mercy, simply ignore it altogether, or pretend they were living by the Law.
Lev 5:5 when he realizes his guilt in any of these and confesses the sin he has committed,
Lev 5:6 he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
Lev 5:7 "But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
Lev 5:8 He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first the one for the sin offering. He shall wring its head from its neck but shall not sever it completely,
Lev 5:9 and he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar; it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:10 Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 5:11 "But if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two pigeons, then he shall bring as his offering for the sin that he has committed a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it and shall put no frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:12 And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take a handful of it as its memorial portion and burn this on the altar, on the LORD's food offerings; it is a sin offering.
Hey, God is pretty smart. What a visual representation and an impossible one to give to a nomadic tribe. And that, my friend, was the intention of the Old Testament sacrifices; to show exactly how ugly and repulsive our sin is to God and how it is impossible for us to be justified in His sight by our efforts. God doesn't care about the goats and bulls and turtle doves. He wants us to understand the hideousness of our sin (every minute, every hour, every day) and the demanding price that must be paid. The impossible sacrifices of the Old Testament pointed to the actual day of atonement when God gave us the perfect sacrifice so that we could be reconciled to Him in the most repulsive act that would take place. And there will never be another time when we will ever see such stench and filth and hideous blood and entrails poured out for us nor a more perfect sacrifice. Never will there be another need for a sacrifice because we can look back and see for ourselves when the ultimate sacrifice took place.
It makes it impossible to understand Revelation especially chapters 4-19 without believing there will be a Tribulation. Jesus Christ discussed the end times in Matthew. The prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel discussed the end times as well. IOW, the end times must be important.
Could you be a bit more specific?
Iscool stated it a lot better than I did in his post just a couple before this. The Millennial Reign is the fulfillment of the Jewish understanding of the Messianic Kingdom. The people inhabiting the earth are not believers in glorified bodies. They repopulate the earth prior to the final rebellion.
The supersessionist view that the church is the "nation" that Jesus gave the Kingdom to does not account for these people. It makes understanding Revelation impossible. I'm arguing that these people are the 1/3rd of Israel that survives the Tribulation and the people saved through the testimony of the 144,000 witnesses. They live the promise that God made to Abraham and foretold of in Prophesy before we are all united in the New Jerusalem.
The Older brother is Judaism, never left the Father, the younger Chr*stianity. Left the Father running after harlots, a metaphor for false teaching(s). And the younger brother is dead (in his current condition), hence the funeral. T'Shuva people! (Return, like the Prodigal...)
That being said, there are certain facts of faith that cannot be thrown out simply trying to explain Revelation. The first, and most important, is that anyone that does not know our Lord Jesus as their Savior is under a curse and the wrath of God rest upon them. God does not bless them. This is stated over and over in both the Old and New Testament. That is simply because the purity of God cannot stand the sight of us. This speaks volumes of the love of God which STILL would try to reach to us despite our wickedness. It also should give us a clue to our self-worth.
The second is all who desire to live a godly life will face persecution. The third is that Christ blood is the ONLY thing that covers our sins-not the blood of goats and pigeons.
Everyone who has known God through the ages has come to know Him exactly in the same way. There is no difference between the way Moses, Abraham, or Jacob were called verses the way you or I were called. We might not have seen a burning bush or a staircase to heaven but our saving faith was exactly the same. God opened our eyes and ears to the truth. God called us out of darkness into a great light to somehow bring glory to His name.
I think all of this talk about the “final battle” is, quiet frankly, silliness. What final battle? Do believers think for one moment that God, who nearly destroyed the world through the flood, swallowed up the rebels of Korah, or rained sulfur on Sodom, is in some epic battle or conflict with Satan? This is the same God who the demons must ask permission to enter a herd of swine. This is the same God who controls nature, time, and death itself. This is not only heretical doctrine but it's also pagan doctrine.
Please consider the fact that in the supersessionist view, which was the church's view for over 1900 years, the “Millennial Reign” Jews simply do not exist. The Jews of Acts, the moment they believed, were happy to call themselves Christians. We who are believers and of Adam's race, both Jews and Gentiles, are ALL adopted into God's family which contains just ONE perfect Son.
God saves us simply so we will bring glory and honor to Him. God, in His mercy, for some unknown reason to execute His plan, decided that He is going to take His time and effort to pour out His blessings on His believers so that He can show what mercy really is. We didn't earn it. We didn't ask for it. God just simply opened our eyes and our spirits cried, “Abba, Father”. And though we are covered in Christ's blood and we are saved through Him, we are still evil and wicked needing His constant attention and improvement which He gladly gives.
Because we represent God, God MUST chasten us to help us conform to the image of His Son. It is all His chastening and turbulence in our lives that causes us to grow as Christians. It isn't because we make a decision for Christ and rush out to actively live a life to Christ. We don't. We would want to sin if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit constantly nagging us in the background.
God doesn't need a special age in which to bring people around nor does He need a Millennial Reign. He is bring people around right around us. And when the fullness of the Gentile is completed, that will be the end-and the beginning.
An excerpt:
The epistle of 1 John clearly tells us the method to determine of someone was from God regarding the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The test was whether Jesus Christ literally came in the flesh. Those that believed He did were of God.
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Conversely, those that did not believe that He came in the flesh were not of God, but were of the spirit of antichrist. This is a very simple test that revolved around the literalness of Bible prophecy.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This was aimed at the gnostics which believe that Jesus Christ was just a spirit being that did not have a body, but notice that it was the literal interpretation of the Bible that is what the Apostle John was defending. There was much more than the Lord Jesus came in the flesh because if He was merely a man, He could not redeem mankind. EVERYTHING about the first coming of the Lord Jesus was LITERAL. This is what John is driving at in showing who is from God and who is manifesting the spirit of antichrist. It was over the literalness of Christ’s first coming according to the Bible.
There is really no scripture about Christ’s first coming that was not literal. The following are just a few verses to show the Old Testament scriptures prophesying the Lord’s coming as a man were all literal. There is no spiritualizing the first coming of the Lord Jesus. It is all literal!
Isaiah 7:14 He was born of a virgin Micah 5:2 He was born in Bethlehem
Isaiah 9:1,2 His ministry would be from the Galilee
Isaiah 42:6,7 His healing ministry opened the physical eyes of the blind
Zechariah 9:9 He presented Himself to Israel as King riding on a donkey. Isaiah 53:9 He was sinless
Isaiah 53:10 He was made an offering for sin
Psalm 22:14-17 He died on the cross as described in these verses.
Psalm 16:10 Jesus Christ bodily rose from the dead.
The above verses show what it means that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Any denial of these verses means that this person is of the spirit of antichrist and not of God. For example, how can someone deny the virgin birth, and yet “confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”? He had to be born from a virgin, so He could be the sinless Son of God to redeem mankind? To deny He was born from a virgin was to deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
Now let us look at the glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
By applying the test for His first coming, we can determine whether a doctrine of His Second Coming is from God or the spirit of the antichrist. The test is centered on the literalness of His coming. The Old Testament was literal about His first coming, so what changed about the literalness of His Second Coming? Can the first coming of Jesus Christ be literal, and yet, somehow the Second Coming is now switched to being spiritualized? Jesus Christ is coming the second time literally just as His first coming was.
Luke 21:24 Jesus Christ stated that the destruction of Jerusalem and dispersion of the Jews was temporary.
Zechariah 14:3,4 Jerusalem will be the literal location of His Second Coming.
Zechariah 12:6 Jerusalem will be the capital of a Jewish state.
Zechariah 12:6 Israel will be a great military power.
Ezekiel 36:16-24 God will restored the Jews back to Israel in unbelief before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Romans 11:26,27 At the Second Coming all Israel will be saved.
Ezekiel 36:8-15 The land of Israel will be greatly blessed.
Ezekiel 38:8 The Jews will be restored to Israel from all nations in the latter-day.
Daniel 7:13,14 Jesus Christ will return with the “Clouds of Heaven,” His church to establish a kingdom on earth.
Revelation 19:5-9 After the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, His bride will return with Him to Jerusalem.
Revelation 20:3-5 His kingdom will last of 1000 years.
Revelation 19:11-15 He is returning bodily.
Zechariah 14:12 When Jesus Christ returns, He will annihilate the armies gathered to destroy the Jews and Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 43:7 He will rule on the throne of David from His temple on Mount Zion.
There are many more scriptures but the ones posted above show what is needed to believe in the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ. An integral part of Christ’s Second Coming is the restoration of the nation of Israel as He is returning to Jerusalem, and all of Israel will call upon Him as their Savior! This is the time when all Israel and not the church will be saved. How is it possible to spiritualize Romans 11:25-28?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26-27) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
The First and Second Coming of Jesus Christ together:
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Zechariah 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
Based on Replacement Theology, is one suppose to believe that verse nine is literal, while the following verse is now spiritualized to mean something else? That Ephraim and Jerusalem now mean the church? The Lord Jesus came literally to Jerusalem in verse 9, but somehow Jerusalem in verse 10 is not to be understood literally? These two verses together show the fallacy of Replacement Theology. They both are literal.
Any person that tampers with the literalness of Christ’s Second Coming is playing with spiritual fire and is falling under the danger being condemned as being from the spirit of antichrist. How can someone claim to being led by the Holy Spirit and deny the literalness of Christ’s Second Coming, and in many cases actively hinder the fulfillment of God’s prophetic word? How can someone claim Jesus Christ as his Savior, and yet refuse to see the connection between the everlasting covenant and modern Israel?
The nation of Israel was twice destroyed in 600 BC and 70 AD. The second dispersion lasted for 1900 years, but now Jerusalem is once again the capital of Israel. They speak Hebrew which had been an extinct language. They even have shekels once again for money. The unbelief of Replacement Theology is very, very powerful. With Israel once again a nation, it takes a greater unbelief to deny Israel, then it does to believe the nation is the fulfillment of prophecy and covenant.
The Lord Jesus stated the coming destruction of Jerusalem, in His day, was only temporary until the “times of the Gentiles were fulfilled”. Current events are indicating that the “times of the Gentiles” are coming to an end.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Just as apostates in the Apostle John’s day refused to believe the literalness of Christ’s first coming, now in our day there are huge numbers of people who refuse to believe in the literalness of Christ’s Second Coming. These people are in great spiritual danger. They share the same unbelief as Muslims as they refuse to believe the Bible. The Muslims reject modern Israel as does Replacement Theology. Because of this unbelief, God is in the process of merging these two groups. This can clearly be seen in the rhetoric and actions in many of the Replacement Theology camp. They and Muslims both use the very same rhetoric and arguments against Israel. They both are actively trying to delegitimize Israel.
Islam is being led by the spirit of antichirst, and now many of the Replacement Theology camp have merged with them. They face the same judgment as Islam. Whoever interferes with God’s prophetic plan for Israel faces judgment from the Holy God of Israel. The reason for this is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is directly tied to the nation of Israel. He is returning to Jerusalem!
Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done (To Israel), it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
God keeps all His promises.
I would like a scriptural basis for your conclusions.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t defend theological constructions — I like to go back to the source — the Word of God — as the ONLY source of authority (rather than church history, councils, opinions, treaties, etc). Not that you shouldn’t read them, but they are simply the *opinions* of men.
For example, I think your comment about us (believers) being blessed while the rest of the world is cursed is mistaken. We are living in the age of Grace - that is, God has suspended his judgement for a little while. If he really did punish those that did wrong, and reward those that believed (for none to right in the eyes of God, save Jesus), then none would stand. In fact, the nations of the earth would NOT receive rain (as will occur in the future).
Matthew 4:5 springs to mind (paraphased) He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
There will come a day however, when God will no longer deal with the whole of mankind with Grace, and that day will be terrible and fearful for all. The only thing that will make it tolerable (for believers) is the blood of Jesus, who died for them, and assuages God’s mighty wrath.
As to your comments about the 1000 years, I do take the description in Rev 20 very seriously, I may not know how it fits in timing wise, but there will be a 1,000 year interval as decribed, just as there will be a 7 year interval.
I really don’t care much for tag-lines, and systematic theology. The “reformed” movement has replaced the institutionalized bad theology of the Catholic church with a version of their own (get rid of indulgences and pergatory, replace with double predestination).
It’s ironic that a movement founded on “Sola Scriptura” now routinely places more emphasis on the Westminster Catechism and Calvinism than the fact that God would that none should perish but all come to repentance.
I would really like some references on that as well. If you want my references (from the New Testament) I would suggest some of the following:
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Those who feel Israel is simply the apple of God's eye should take a hard and fast look at Moses' warning in Deut 31. And should we feel smug, this is our very corruptible nature as well. The warning can apply to us just as well. No, the Old Testament is not dead but is alive and well, with lots of insight and instructions for our lives.
I know of nothing in scripture, or in the Westminster Confessions, that would even hint that God's wrath has subsided.
I think you are right, I think the confusion between your position and mine is that I think the wrath of god INCLUDES his judgement.
Right now for example, wicked people experience the wrath of God in that he gives them what the want (to be left to their own devices, which does not turn out good). However, the wrath of God (judgement-wise) as spoken if Revelation will be revealed as a whole, and at the final judgement of course the account(s) will be settled.
Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
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