Posted on 04/19/2012 11:58:25 AM PDT by NYer
I saw an advance copy of a survey by William J. Byron and Charles Zech, which will appear in the April 30th edition of “America” magazine.
It was conducted at the request of David O’Connell, the bishop of Trenton, and its focus was very simple: it endeavored to discover why Catholics have left the church. No one denies that a rather substantive number of Catholics have taken their leave during the past 20 years, and Byron and Zech wanted to find out why. They did so in the most direct way possible and asked those who had quit.
The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable. Lots of people cited the church’s teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women. These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and I’d be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues. But there just isn’t a lot that the church can do about them. No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.
What struck me about the survey, however, was that many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed. Many of the respondents commented that they left because of “bad customer relations.” One woman said that she felt “undervalued by the church” and found “no mentors.” Many more said that their pastors were “arrogant, distant, aloof, and insensitive,” and still others said that their experiences over the phone with parish staffers were distinctly negative. Now I fully understand that parish priests and lay ministers are on the front lines and hence are the ones who often have to say “no” when a parishioner asks for something that just can’t be granted. Sometimes the recipient of that “no” can all too facilely accuse the one who says it as arrogant or indifferent. Nevertheless, the survey can and should be a wake-up call to church leaders—both clerical and non-clerical—that simple kindness, compassion, and attention go a rather long way. I distinctly remember the advice that my first pastor—a wonderful and pastorally skillful priest—gave to the parish secretary: “for many people, you are the first contact they have with the Catholic Church; you exercise, therefore, an indispensable ministry.” One respondent to the survey observed that whenever he asked a priest about a controversial issue, he “got rules, and not an invitation to sit down and talk.” Unfair? Perhaps. But every priest, even when ultimately he has to say “no,” can do so in the context of a relationship predicated upon love and respect.
A second major concern that can and should be addressed is that of bad preaching. Again and again, people said that they left the church because homilies were “boring, irrelevant, poorly prepared,” or “delivered in an impenetrable accent.” Again, speaking as someone who is called upon to give sermons all the time, I realize how terribly difficult it is to preach, how it involves skill in public speaking, attention to the culture, expertise in biblical interpretation, and sensitivity to the needs and interests of an incredibly diverse audience. That said, homilists can make a great leap forward by being attentive to one fact: sermons become boring in the measure that they don’t propose something like answers to real questions. All of the biblical exegesis and oratorical skill in the world will be met with a massive “so what?” if the preacher has not endeavored to correlate the “answers” he provides with the “questions” that beguile the hearts of the people to whom he speaks. Practically every Gospel involves an encounter between Jesus and a person—Peter, Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, etc.—who is questioning, wondering, suffering, or seeking. An interesting homily identifies that longing and demonstrates, concretely, how Jesus fulfills it. When the homily both reminds people how thirsty they are and provides water to quench the thirst, people will listen.
A third eminently correctable problem is one that I will admit I had never thought about before reading this survey. Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way. Now again, I can anticipate and fully understand the objections from pastoral people: many Catholic parishes are huge—upwards of three or four thousand families—and staffs are small. Yet, just as major corporations, serving millions of people, attend carefully to lost customers, so Catholic parishes should prioritize an outreach to those who have drifted (or stormed) away. A phone call, a note, an e-mail, a pastoral visit—anything that would say, “We’ve noticed you’re not coming to Mass anymore. Can we help? Can you tell us what, if anything, we’ve done wrong? We’d love to see you back with us.”
The problem of Catholics leaving the church is, obviously, serious and complex, and anyone who would suggest an easy solution is naïve. However, having listened to a representative sample of those who have left, parishes, priests, and church administrators might take some relatively simple and direct steps that would go a long way toward ameliorating the situation.
We left our church because our priest was a pretty open homosexual. After he left for being accused of being a diddler, they sent us another one. Finally the bishop was outed as well. Our diocese was spending more time and effort denying the facts, collecting money to pay off the lawyers, and just outright lying about the diddlers.
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
EVERYONE is guilty of telling a lie sometime in their life. In James 2:10 says:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Without the mercy and grace of our great God and Savior we would ALL be condemned and doomed to eternity in hell separated from God because ONLY by the shed blood of Christ can our sins be paid and removed from us.
So, like you reminded us dear brother in Christ, we are given assurance that "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Praise His wonderful name!
This is addressed to Christians. This is without a doubt about individual sins. He is addresses it in the letter for a reason. He has to definitely point it out. This why it is in scripture. To minimize it is wrong.
Who's minimizing? I already stated that we MUST come before God in repentance, admitting we are sinners and cannot save ourselves. When James speaks about Christians who battle the old nature that remains after the new birth, he is speaking by revelation of God, so rather than toss out so many other passages of Scripture that teach we are NOT saved by NOT sinning (AKA "being good"), look at the context and objectively look at his point. If we say we have not or do not sin, we deceive WHO? ourselves - because neither those around us, and certainly not God, is deceived. We can seldom hide our true actions from those close to us and God sees ALL secret things - we cannot hide from Him. We recognize the fact of our sin nature, repent of specific sin - that does so easily beset us -, confess it before God - which means "name it like He names it" (come clean)- and resolve to continue in renewed fellowship with others and God, cleansed from all unrighteousness and walking in truth. Your error is in thinking this is somehow speaking about our eternal destiny. THAT has already been resolved the moment we came to saving faith in Christ. James is talking to saved Christians and teaching them and us how to deal with ongoing sin in our lives.
I pray for your spiritual eyes to be opened to the blessing that comes from believing God and receiving the gift of everlasting life He offers to all by grace through faith. The assurance HE desires for us causes us to see Him as our loving Heavenly Father and that makes us want to please Him and honor Him with our lives - out of gratitude for what he has done for us.
Thank you, I’m glad you said that. It is the truth.
Hebrews 12:4-11
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Leonardo is revered for his technological ingenuity. He conceptualised a helicopter, a tank, concentrated solar power, a calculator, and the double hull, and he outlined a rudimentary theory of plate tectonics. Relatively few of his designs were constructed or were even feasible during his lifetime, but some of his smaller inventions, such as an automated bobbin winder and a machine for testing the tensile strength of wire, entered the world of manufacturing unheralded. He made important discoveries in anatomy, civil engineering, optics, and hydrodynamics, but he did not publish his findings and they had no direct influence on later science. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_vinci
The Mona Lisa is one of his best known works. He certainly had many commissions requesting his talents. One specifically was for Pope Alexander VI - of the notable Borgia Family - and the Pope's son, Cesare:
I agree with you, metmom, such creative genius of those like Da Vinci, Raphael and Michelangelo was a gift from God and certainly not something current members of the Catholic Church can boast of. Of course, many of the Masters greatest works were of religious importance, but it can not be said that the Church was behind their gifts.
Leonardo is revered for his technological ingenuity. He conceptualised a helicopter, a tank, concentrated solar power, a calculator, and the double hull, and he outlined a rudimentary theory of plate tectonics. Relatively few of his designs were constructed or were even feasible during his lifetime, but some of his smaller inventions, such as an automated bobbin winder and a machine for testing the tensile strength of wire, entered the world of manufacturing unheralded. He made important discoveries in anatomy, civil engineering, optics, and hydrodynamics, but he did not publish his findings and they had no direct influence on later science. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_vinci
The Mona Lisa is one of his best known works. He certainly had many commissions requesting his talents. One specifically was for Pope Alexander VI - of the notable Borgia Family - and the Pope's son, Cesare:
I agree with you, metmom, such creative genius of those like Da Vinci, Raphael and Michelangelo was a gift from God and certainly not something current members of the Catholic Church can boast of. Of course, many of the Masters greatest works were of religious importance, but it can not be said that the Church was behind their gifts.
Care to explain who or what is robotic in what I said? Or are you becoming like another on these threads who only posts mocking cartoons and never bothers to explain their point?
Daddy! My Father will always forgive me.
Why I sinned an broke the picket fence but Daddy will always forgive myself.
So I sinned again I broke the window Daddy will always forgive me
I sinned and busted the pipes. Water is everywhere but Daddy will always forgive.
I do not have to humble myself Daddy will do it for me.
Why I am not responsible for myself. Daddy does it all by himself.
Daddy declared me a spoiled brat.
Why does Daddy call me a spoiled Brat.
He does everything I do not understand.
Oh Daddy! Oh Daddy!
Robots are Not US!!
WRONG!! Their anger is from what is within them - EVIL not wanting to accept TRUTH! We see that from Scripture from the Pharisees and their hell bent way of holding onto their tradition. Pride/evil is their downfall and the fruits of evil is anger/hatred/fear. And that's all they see when anyone opposes their tradition.
Now who is the one who speaks against what Jesus said shared responsibility for their sin - 'satan' is the culprit as It is Written
"Therefore, there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."
I pray that you remember this when declaring your own Salvation.
Yes, I remember satan is the accuser of the breathern - God's enemy.
The salvation of those in Christ is rock solid like Jesus is the Rock/cornerstone of His church. And NO ONE can take them from HIS Hand for It is Written.
love, gentleness and respect, not rancor, disdain and arrogance.
Speaking THE TRUTH is Love and their disdain for it will bring out what is within them - deception and their clamoring for others to follow their 'tradition'.
And each time some new person sees it and begins a new journey of truth or someone needed to see it again for some verse or point. Don’t ever tire of posting that smvoice.
Sadly, yes, it certainly appears so.
God is not a stingy miser with forgiveness. He grants it freely because He knows our frame and remembers that we are dust. (Psalm 103)
Catholic mentality is that God is a God of judgment and condemnation and is just waiting for us to make a mistake or sin and zap us. There's always the threat of hellfire and brimstone for those whose lives are not perfect (oops that's all of us). There's always the demand for going to confession and doing penance to appease Him and try to earn forgiveness for the sin we confessed in confession, shorten the time in purgatory. Nothing any person can do is good enough for God according to the Catholic church.
It's like God is up there just about fed up with us and waiting for a chance to zap us.
Perhaps it would do Catholics some good to concentrate on the fact that God is a God of mercy and forgiveness. He's looking for reasons to save us, not condemn us.
He doesn't have His finger on the heavenly zot button. No decent earthly father would disown his own child for disobedience, even when it IS willful, and how many children even sin willfully? Or rather, how many children DON'T ever sin willfully, and are not disowned by their fathers? God our heavenly Father does not either.
Sin interferes with our relationship with God, messing up the lines of communication but once we've repented and ARE saved. Sin, even willful sin, does not damn us or cause us to no longer be His children.
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE." 2 Tim. 4:2.
God Bless! smvoice
I left the Catholic church 27 years ago, when a co-worker was kind enough to explain to me the Saving Gospel of Grace out of the book of Romans. Salvation by Grace alone, thru Faith alone, in Christ alone!
My conversion left me joyous, thankfull, tearfull and in Awe of the Great God of Mercy who had sacrificed His Son to save a wretch like me.
I was bursting at the seams, telling all who would listen about the Free Salvation in Christ.
"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Ephesians 4:30-32
"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, heresies, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:19-21
Exactly - anyone who has outbursts of anger when reading TRUTH is acting in the flesh. And using manipulative words to defend their man made tradition which IS of the flesh.
The RCC grieves the HOLY SPIRIT simply by it’s existence with it’s man made doctrine/tradition of infallibility. Anyone with the Holy Spirit within them shuns them/their teachings.
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