Posted on 03/25/2012 7:53:32 PM PDT by Salvation
The Rites of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
One and Many Churches (origins of the Church)
THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
You are >right, absolutely so! I was using the term Roman Catholic as it’s understood by the >world in general to mean the Church where the man in charge wears the big hat.
If that is the case then Mary's mother would, of necessity, have had to be born without sin, since her grandson is the son of God. And therefore, Mary's grandmother ... since the great grandson ... etc. etc. ...
Upon arrival at final step (Eve was sinless) I claim the proof is complete by induction ... therefore, the initial conjecture (Mary was sinless) is proven false.
Male headship dictates that the sin nature is passed down throught the man (Rom. 5:12), not the woman. And if the sin nature is passed down through the man, then there is no issue with Mary giving birth to the sinless son of God.
No, I don't know the difference between a doctrine and a dogma. Is that relevant? I assumed that since you said that those who believe otherwise would be doomed to hell ... whether I call it a doctrine or a dogma is not germaine to my eternal destiny.
I don't want to split hairs over terminology ...
Explain why my proof is invalid.
gghd, that’s me, used the name of the boat NOT the Catholic Church to explain the Immaculate Conception. I was using the name to illustrate the >Truth of the Immaculate Conception as explained by the Catholic Church.
There are Protestants that call it a ‘theory’ & incorrectly think the >Truth of the Immaculate Conception as taught by Catholics did not exist until >1854. I used the >1492 date, a commonly accepted date & name of a ship to >demonstrate that the >Truth of the Immaculate Conception has >always been revealed to us by the Catholic Church.
Information about the Immaculate Conception is readily available now days in the Bible & on the Internet & as such really doesn’t need a ‘proof’ as understood by Protestants.
Jesus Christ is without SIN & I gave an example of how He prevented his mother from falling into >original sin. It would be an interesting exercise to have >Protestants explain what they would do >for their mother in the same circumstances.
We, Catholics, know Jesus >honored His mother, & as His mother, she is >also our mother as we ALL become ‘brothers & sisters’ of Jesus Christ & through Him> children of God.
The question is: Why do Protestants call Jesus Christ “their best friend” & persist in calling His mother a real sinner. It’s ‘biblically’ incorrect & also violates the ‘Code of the West,’ pardner.
Catholic Answers says the IC is a doctrine.
The questions you ask are ALL answered on the Internet. Please look at Catholic Answers or EWTN or The Catechism of the Catholic Church for correct teaching.
As a note: Romans5: 12 ‘Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned.’ This passage doesn’t teach what you maintain. We know Jesus was ‘conceived’ by the Holy Spirit & was without sin.
Jesus Christ honored his mother as required by the 10 commandments. Theologically, it is possible to believe: The Virgin Mary was redeemed >before she was conceived here on earth. God is eternal. ALL OF CREATION lives in the Heart of God before it is created.
The real question for ALL people when faced with the Truth of the Immaculate Conception is: “WHAT would you do for >your mother????” We know absolutely;> Jesus Christ was without sin & Honored his mother & Father. We are >always being ‘tested’ by God.
I’m butting into the conversation uninvited. At this moment, I have some ‘extra’ time. Salvation is a very busy person. +++I’m an Irishman that belongs to the public society of >Buttinskies.
This is from #491 of the Catechism of the Church, in part: ‘...Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the >dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses...”
Please look at my comment #12 on this thread. God decides >fault. & Fault is determined by God on: 1. Willfulness, 2. Full knowledge & 3. Serious matter.
God will decide ‘ultimate destiny’ & we are judged by our ‘thoughts, words, what we do & what we fail to do.’ We are all called to be Holy as God is Holy. We ALL need to pray for one another. = Lord have Mercy.
Since the scriptures are totally silent on the birth of Mary, anything you believe about her birth is speculation at best.
Jesus Christ honored his mother as required by the 10 commandments.
And by your own logic, He would have also honored Joseph for the same reason; it was required by the 10 Commandments. If Jesus provided Mary with her redemption to honor her via the 10 commandments ... they He would have had to do the same for Joseph; which is of course not a doctrine that Catholics hold, Josephs' immaculate conception.
Lemme guess your response ...
"Joseph wasnt really Jesus' father, so He didnt have to give him his redemption at his birth."
You are right about Saint Joseph. Jesus Christ honored God as He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The mystery of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
God did not leave us to wander the earth as a Motherless child. God gave us Holy Mother our Church to guide our ways on the path to Heaven. Out of the Heart of Jesus Christ was born His Church.
In the Bible, it is the Church that is given >authority from God. & We know the Bible came out of the Church. Jesus Christ promises that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church.
Christianity is NOT NOT NOT about a book = the Bible. Christianity is about a person & that person is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the WORD of God made flesh. & The Church is His Body.
ALL of creation & ALL of the Bible can be summed up in one Word & that Word is = Jesus.
I apologize gghd.
I >may have made a mistake. That is why in the Catholic Church, Priests are given >authority to teach & They are well education in Christianity.
St Joseph was >redeemed by Jesus Christ & he is a very Holy person.
I do not know when St. Joseph was redeemed.
From reading the Bible, it appears as though St. John the Baptist was ‘saved’ while he was in the womb. At six months of age in the womb, St. John the Baptist >leaped for joy at the sound of The Virgin Mary’s voice.
St. Joseph may have been redeemed at >birth. But the Immaculate Conception is about the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ.
Pray for me! I need prayers to over come the sin of ‘sloth’ as I confess I am just to lazy at the moment to do any research about the ‘theology on when St. Joseph was redeemed.’
As the man that was given the responsibility of raising Jesus Christ to be a man, St. Joseph >must have been a ‘manly-man’ & also Holy before God.
Could hardly believe it when I open the Catholic Dictionary window and "doctrine" was the word!
Featured Term (selected at random):
Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful. The truth may be either formally revealed (as the Real Presence), or a theological conclusion (as the canonization of a saint), or part of the natural law (as the sinfulness of contraception). In any case, what makes it doctrine is that the Church authority teaches that it is to be believed. this teaching may be done either solemnly in ex cathedra pronouncements or ordinarily in the perennial exercise of the Church's magisterium or teaching authority. Dogmas are those doctrines which the Church proposes for belief as formally revealed by God. (Etym. Latin doctrina, teaching.)
Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. they are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. they may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin dogma; from Greek dogma, declaration, decree.)
Dogma are those 'beliefs' that the RCC deems necessary for salvation.
Doctrine is all other 'beliefs' that the church deems 'important but secondary' ... i.e. not required for salvation.
Is that a correct understanding?
What would be the official source of determining whether the IC is a doctrine or a dogma ... since there are different opinions out there?
And thanks for the education on dogma vs. doctrine ... I learned something.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.