To My "Bible Only" Christian Brothers and Sisters, From A Catholic Convert [a humble vanity]

[MarkBsnr]

I thank God that Origen had nothing to do with canon.

Of course Origen was part of the process by which Scripture was eventually selected. What do you mean that he had nothing to do with it?

For those that are God’s elect, and have the Holy Spirit, canon is of little impact. Canon is mostly for the lost “Bible scholars” that inhabit the halls of secular universities.

I suppose that if you gaze at the god in the mirror and declare your own salvation, what need have you of any Scripture except what you pick and choose, or why not, write it yourself? Joseph Smith did. He did rather well, for a while...

[MarkBsnr]

It wasn’t me that made it personal, as usual it was Mark, and I wass simply chiding him for doing it.

Accusing me of something and not courtesy pinging me? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

[Cronos]

I’ve been attacked by Catholics on this site --> yes and we've been attacked by non-Catholics of various stripes.

[Cronos]

Mark: Matthew does not denounce any...

CG: "quoting from Exodus" 4 “You shall not make for yourself

Errr.. CG, you do realize that your post is talking at cross-purposes. Mark specifically posted about the Gospel of Matthew. you quote Exodus

Secondly, a bit later you can read nice descriptions of how the ark is to have graven images carved on it...

Graven images?

Thirdly, your post's position of iconoclasm dates from the time when the Caliph Al-Malik started. The debate was over by the 800s and has periodic revivals under Islamic influence etc.

[Country Gal]

I’ll let the 10 commandments speak for themselves.

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[Cronos]

Firstly — your post went off tangent — Mark specifically pointed out Matthew. Why was that ignored?

[Cronos]

Secondly -- you do realize that God commanded the building of the Ark of the Covenant which has quite a few images, graven images -- as you can see in the nice little picture of the Ark above.

Oh, and as I said -- your post's arguments are exactly what the Moslems said in the 600s, not very original..

[Cronos]

also, note that Early Christians disagreed with you. Here's a bit of painting from the Dura-Europos church in Syria that dates from the 2nd century (i.e. during the times of persecution of Christians)

So, Early Christians had a different point of view from what's stated by your posts...

[Cronos]

And, finally, here's Exodus 25:17-22 in case you haven't read it before

17 “Make an atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide.
18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover.
19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.
20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.
21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the tablets of the covenant law that I will give you.
22 There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the covenant law, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

cherubim carved are pretty graven images, eh?

[Cronos]

And some more bible study for you, CG in case you haven't read it before, 1 Kings 6

23 For the inner sanctuary he made a pair of cherubim out of olive wood, each ten cubits high. 24 One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. 25 The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape. 26 The height of each cherub was ten cubits. 27 He placed the cherubim inside the innermost room of the temple, with their wings spread out. The wing of one cherub touched one wall, while the wing of the other touched the other wall, and their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. 28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold.

29 On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers

cherubim carved are pretty graven images, eh?

[Country Gal]

As I’ve said many times. There’s nothing wrong with creating art. The problem is bowing to it. It’s that simple. Create art. God gave commands to do it, as you’ve shown. Just don’t bow to it. I didn’t say it. God did.

[Country Gal]

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[D-fendr]

I don’t think you can toss off the literal in graven images and hold to the literal in bow.

The commandment is clearly about other gods, false god, serving and worshiping false gods.

It’s the ‘god’ part that breaks the commandment.

[Cronos]

Let me repeat again if you could not read

Markbsnr referred to the Gospel of Matthew -- you know of the Gospel of Matthew, right? you then quote Exodus.

Secondly, Exodus clearly talks later of graven images.

These images are not worshipped, neither are the statues you've indicated.

[Country Gal]

The major difference between the two (Catholic and Protestant) is the definition of Worship. God seems to feel that bowing is worship, as it states this in the 10 commandments, as well as the many stories in the Old Testament in how God’s anger burned against those who bowed to idols. I know that this is not how the Catholics see it, as I’ve been told this many times.

Yes, I’m very familiar with the Gospel of Matthew.

[MarkBsnr]

The major difference between the two (Catholic and Protestant) is the definition of Worship. God seems to feel that bowing is worship, as it states this in the 10 commandments, as well as the many stories in the Old Testament in how God’s anger burned against those who bowed to idols. I know that this is not how the Catholics see it, as I’ve been told this many times.

God feels that bowing in the OT is worship, does He? Let us examine that statement.

Genesis 42: 6 Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the person who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down to him with their faces to the ground.

2 Samuel 1: 2 On the third day a man arrived from Saul’s camp with his clothes torn and dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor.

Psalm 72: 9 May the desert tribes bow before him and his enemies lick the dust. (speaking of David)

Do you interpret this as worship?

Psalm 5: 7 But I, by your great love, can come into your house; in reverence I bow down toward your holy temple. (so God is okay to bowing to the temple of God).

Ruth 2: 10 At this, she bowed down with her face to the ground. She asked him, “Why have I found such favor in your eyes that you notice me—a foreigner?”

1 Samuel 25: 23 When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. (do you think that I should ask my wife to do this?)

1 Kings 1: 16 Bathsheba bowed down, prostrating herself before the king. “What is it you want?” the king asked. (hmmmmmm)

1 Chronicles 21: 21 Then David approached, and when Araunah looked and saw him, he left the threshing floor and bowed down before David with his face to the ground.

Lots of idolatry going on, right?

Yes, I’m very familiar with the Gospel of Matthew.

Judging by my exchanges with various Protestants over the years, you may be an exception.

[MarkBsnr]

The major difference between the two (Catholic and Protestant) is the definition of Worship. God seems to feel that bowing is worship, as it states this in the 10 commandments, as well as the many stories in the Old Testament in how God’s anger burned against those who bowed to idols. I know that this is not how the Catholics see it, as I’ve been told this many times.

God feels that bowing in the OT is worship, does He? Let us examine that statement.

Genesis 42: 6 Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the person who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down to him with their faces to the ground.

2 Samuel 1: 2 On the third day a man arrived from Saul’s camp with his clothes torn and dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor.

Psalm 72: 9 May the desert tribes bow before him and his enemies lick the dust. (speaking of David)

Do you interpret this as worship?

Psalm 5: 7 But I, by your great love, can come into your house; in reverence I bow down toward your holy temple. (so God is okay to bowing to the temple of God).

Ruth 2: 10 At this, she bowed down with her face to the ground. She asked him, “Why have I found such favor in your eyes that you notice me—a foreigner?”

1 Samuel 25: 23 When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. (do you think that I should ask my wife to do this?)

1 Kings 1: 16 Bathsheba bowed down, prostrating herself before the king. “What is it you want?” the king asked. (hmmmmmm)

1 Chronicles 21: 21 Then David approached, and when Araunah looked and saw him, he left the threshing floor and bowed down before David with his face to the ground.

Lots of idolatry going on, right?

Yes, I’m very familiar with the Gospel of Matthew.

Judging by my exchanges with various Protestants over the years, you may be an exception.

[MarkBsnr]

Markbsnr referred to the Gospel of Matthew -- you know of the Gospel of Matthew, right? you then quote Exodus.

Correct. An argument from a previous poster centered around the Gospel of Matthew as opposed to other Scriptural sources. We Catholics hold the Gospels to be the pinnacle of Scripture - the Word of God and the word of God all in one. The NT is to be viewed through the Gospels and the OT through the New. That is the order of importance. Jesus as God and Saviour. Those whom He taught on earth. The earlier revelations which did not quite make it because they were viewed through men's eyes and not God made flesh on earth.

[Country Gal]

It doesn’t state in these passages that these were not forms of worship. After all, in Esther, Mordecai refused to bow to Hayman.

Perhaps bowing to an actual person seems different to God than bowing to an image. Seems to be the case, anyway.

Peace to you and your family

[MarkBsnr]

It doesn’t state in these passages that these were not forms of worship. After all, in Esther, Mordecai refused to bow to Hayman.

Now was that a refusal of worship or a refusal of accordance of recognition of eminence? One bows to the king or queen. One bows to the master of a great establishment. Or upon receiving a great honour from one above one's station authorized to bestow that honour. how about one who is simply far above one's station?

I believe that the Virgin Mary and the saints fall into that category. They are where we hope to be.

Peace to you and your family

And to you and yours, may the grace and peace of Almighty God rest upon you.