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Locked on 03/14/2012 11:57:15 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior - all about individual Freepers |
Posted on 03/09/2012 10:46:28 AM PST by Quix
I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.
I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.
And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.
I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.
I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.
That said . . .
I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.
My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.
Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.
As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.
I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.
Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.
She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.
The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.
The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.
On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.
Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.
Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"
Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'
I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.
Not my reality.
Engage in whatever you feel comfortable and led to engage in.
I don’t feel inclined to play.
I thank God for people like you as you serve a very important purpose. How many lives have been ruined because somebody followed after a charlatan who no one dared to challenge? We need even MORE who will stand for the truth of God's word and defeat the demonic forces that pose as angels of light and ministers of righteousness. I'm sure Satan would love nothing more than for everyone to just leave them alone and "let God sort them out".
The Pharisee Gamaliel's statement of "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:38-39) is used to presume that God will stop false teachers so we need do nothing, although anything of God can NOT be stopped, Gamaliel was NOT a prophet nor was he totally correct as we see all kinds of false teachers and teaching around, some of them even older than Christianity. No, God gave us Scripture so that we CAN reprove, rebuke and exhort according to the standard of truth - the Holy Scriptures. And we are exhorted to test the spirits to see if they are from God, how else to do that than by the infallible authority of the Scriptures.
Or the mature Christian.
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Mormons SAY the same thing as well. Do you think they're Christians?
My, your memory is short! You HAVE been given Scripture as well as your Scriptures addressed. Nobody has been able to "deal with" your Scripture quotes? All we've done is "ignore", "minimize" and "explain" them away? Go back and read that last thread, the one that got closed because of "childishness". To start with, those verses in Corinthians most certainly DO say things that it appears YOU may be minimizing. Especially the one where the gifts would "cease". Also, the order of worship Paul admonished the carnal Corinthians about was because they were doing some of the exact same things churches do today that believe the tongue gifts are still here. Why do THOSE get ignored? You know, the ones about two or three at the most, one at a time, women keep silent, someone to "interpret", not for the believer but for the unbeliever, stuff like that?
What is not so impressive to observe is how gullible some people are to believe the "unknown" sounds and actions (grunts, barking, other animal sounds, laughing) MUST be a sign of the Holy Spirit. What is worse, is those who swallow every word of these "preachers" as the gospel truth and neglect to search the Scriptures to see if what they say is true. THAT is not so impressive and that is how Satan so easily deceives.
Go back? Quix, based on your posts, you haven't left yet.
Occasionally, God does give SOME folks a Damascus road or burning bush sort of experience. NOT MOST folks. And, Holy Spirit does not PUSH HIMSELF in a forceful way on someone.
And you know this how? What are your Scripture references - chapter and verse?
On what basis do you decide that the Holy Spirit does not push Himself on others?
1 Corinthians 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
1 Corinthians 14:7-9 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
1 Corinthians 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1 Corinthians 14:22-23 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
bb asked some valid questions of YOU.
Why don’t YOU answer them?
Some of us are of the opinion that HOLY SPIRIT simply CANNOT give gifts which are
Of NO importance to the mature Christian.
By definition, ALL HOLY SPIRIT DOES AND GIVES IS WORTHWHILE AND IMPORTANT FOR MATURE CHRISTIANS.
Folks who disagree can argue with Holy Spirit about it.
27 All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it. 28 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church: 29 Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? 30 Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! 31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts. 1 Corinthians 14 Tongues and Prophecy 5 I wish you could ALL speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened. 6 Dear brothers and sisters,[l] if I should come to you speaking in an unknown language,[m] how would that help you? But if I bring you a revelation or some special knowledge or prophecy or teaching, that will be helpful. 7 Even lifeless instruments like the flute or the harp must play the notes clearly, or no one will recognize the melody. 8 And if the bugler doesn’t sound a clear call, how will the soldiers know they are being called to battle? 9 It’s the same for you. If you speak to people in words they don’t understand, how will they know what you are saying? You might as well be talking into empty space. 10 There are many different languages in the world, and every language has meaning. 11 But if I don’t understand a language, I will be a foreigner to someone who speaks it, and the one who speaks it will be a foreigner to me. 12 And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church. 13 So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. 14 For if I PRAY IN TONGUES, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying. 15 Well then, what shall I do? I WILL pray in the spirit,[n] and I will ALSO pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will ALSO sing in words I understand. 16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You WILL BE giving thanks VERY WELL, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you. 18 I THANK GOD that I speak in tongues MORE THAN any of you. 19 But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language. 20 Dear brothers and sisters, don’t be childish in your understanding of these things. Be innocent as babies when it comes to evil, but be mature in understanding matters of this kind. 21 It is written in the Scriptures[o]: “I will speak to my own people 22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers. 23 Even so, if unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your church meeting and hear everyone speaking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy. 24 But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin and judged by what you say. 25 As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, “God is truly here among you.” A Call to Orderly Worship 26 Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you. 27 No more than two or three SHOULD speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say. 28 But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately. 29 Let two or three people prophesy, and let the others evaluate what is said. 30 But if someone is prophesying and another person receives a revelation from the Lord, the one who is speaking must stop. 31 In this way, all who prophesy will have a turn to speak, one after the other, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged. 32 Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God’s holy people.[q] . . . 35 If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.[r] . . .
18 But our bodies have many parts, and God has put each part just where he wants it. 19 How strange a body would be if it had only one part! 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21 The eye can never say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”
first are apostles,
second are prophets,
third are teachers,
then those who do miracles,
those who have the gift of healing,
those who can help others,
those who have the gift of leadership,
those who speak in unknown languages.
1 Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy. 2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[j] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[k] but it will all be mysterious. 3 But one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them. 4 A person who speaks in tongues IS strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.
through strange languages
and through the lips of foreigners.
But even then, they will not listen to me,”
[p] says the LORD.
39 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and DON'T FORBID speaking in tongues. 40 But be sure that everything is done properly and in order.
I trust St Paul's words of SCRIPTURE to be MUCH MORE ACCURATE about God's priorities for MATURE CHRISTIANS and for churches in the whole of the church era . . . than I do 10,000 personal opinions contrary to said Scripture.
For those given to throwing away those verses and/or sentences . . . if they would mangle and trash Scripture, there's no end of mayhem they'll continue to do with my poor words. That'll have to be between them and God. I don't care to contribute unnecessarily to futile dialogue with such perspectives, attitudes and habits.
Why don't we ever hear about this list being taught on and sought after?
Romans 12:3-8 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
Where are tongues listed in this written later than Corinthians letter? This letter written to a more mature and less carnal and sin filled church?
And what the heck version of Scripture are you using?
It doesn’t sound like any legitimate translation, but rather a paraphrase like The Living Bible or The Message, which takes a lot of liberties in its restating of Scripture.
Thank you. Agreed. The speaking in tongues served a valuable purpose in establishing the Christian church but was one of those gifts to pass away.
Actually,
The NEW LIVING TRANSLATION
is one of the most respected scholarly translations available currently.
The meaning is the same in a list of the better translations, however.
If you wish to start a thread on those issues,
help yourself.
Clearly my words of agreement have not registered multiple times before.
I don’t expect them to register now.
PREACH IT!!! You are a breath of fresh air and it's obvious, you KNOW HIM!
INDEED.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I think there are some mysteries . . . particularly with some folks along some of these lines and issues.
However, on the whole, I think that’s essentially quite thoroughly accurate.
PRAISE GOD.
Who's throwing away any verses? We all agree that Paul was speaking of valid gifts that the Holy Spirit gave and they had a specific use AND purpose. Are you throwing out I Cor. 13:8, "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease"? Just who is mangling or trashing Scripture when what passes as the sign gift of tongues in the first century is now used by many people all at once, to puff up, in the church, among believers, with no one interpreting, and, if someone actually says they know what the person said, usually it is something inane and little more than platitudes or repetition of Scripture already revealed? Why does it seem those parts are "functionally" ripped out of Bibles because they are all but ignored?
I am perfectly accepting of ALL of Scripture, including the time frames laid out by God and this gift of tongues - which seems to be SO important that some risk accusing fellow Christians of speaking from the "pit", calling their views demonic - and I accept that some of these special gifts have ceased, just as Paul said they would. There is no more supernatural revelation or revealed knowledge, because we have the complete Word of God. So also there is no more need for the supernatural sign gift of tongues, since the Bible also is here. Not to mention, rarely, if not never, is someone who supposedly has this gift, been able to speak the foreign language of the person God brings to them to tell the Gospel. If that were the case, traveling evangelists wouldn't need translators at their revivals.
Tongues were given for a set purpose and their reason for existing was:
In Knowledge
In prophecy
In doctrine
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