| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 03/14/2012 11:57:15 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior - all about individual Freepers |
Posted on 03/09/2012 10:46:28 AM PST by Quix
I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.
I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.
And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.
I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.
I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.
That said . . .
I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.
My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.
Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.
As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.
I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.
Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.
She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.
The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.
The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.
On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.
Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.
Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"
Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'
I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.
I have not been following the posts in this strategy except for the few I see pinged to me, but apparently there is a conflict as to whether God always heals, and the reason why one does not receive his healing.
On this, I will say that I believe that healing is definitely provided for in the atonement, (Isaiah 53:4, 5; Matthew 8:17; James 5:14-16) in that while it is consistent with God’s nature and will to heal, manifesting his grace and power, and lack of faith and obedience can indeed prevent deliverance, healing, victory, etc.but it likewise is consistent with the nature and will not to heal, as he has higher purposes in mind, and which can take more faith especially enduring faith - then it may for one to be delivered. And thus lack of faith and obedience prevents what God is seeking to perfect in us. And I can testify the reality of both victory in faith and the lack of victory because of an evil heart of unbelief.
These two aspects of faith, that of deliverance, and that of enduring until deliverance, is see in the hall the faith of Hebrews 11. In which some,
“through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again:” (Hebrews 11:33-35a)
But then there is the keyword “others,”
“...and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. “ (Hebrews 11:35b-38)
Yet these all obtained a good report through faith, (Hebrews 11:39) though being before Christ they received not the promise, but awaited his death and resurrection, wherein he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto , and entered into the glory of God, which is another study.
The point is that by faith, we may escape the edge of the sword as well as be able to endure being sawn into two, and the latter is not because of lack of face for the former.
There was a book called Streams in the Desert, by Mrs. Charles E Cowman, a missionary evangelists with her husband in Japan (one of the cofounders of the Oriental Missionary Society, now the One Mission Society; formerly OMS International), which I read daily a few years ago while I was going through a long time of seeking the Lord.
They believed in divine healing, and were hard-working missionaries in a hard mission field, which required and saw much faith. However in his late 40s shells began to have any heart problems. They spent a little time back in America are seeking to recover but soon returned to campaign more for Christ in Japan.
Having returned to America numerous heart attacks forced him to rest at his home in California and he suffered in great pain during the next six years, yet he always kept a positive attitude while continuing his work for the Lord. “Although broken in body, he kept an oversight of the home office and every department of work on the field, dictating letters by the hundreds.” Finally, a stroke paralyzed his entire left side, and a few weeks later he died.
But apparently during this time Mrs. Cowman, “Lettie, “collected many different articles on faith and patience from the many Christian periodicals to that period of time (and which I think was toward the end of the golden age of Protestant evangelical faith). That Mrs. Cowman believed in divine healing is clear from her October 30 entry, (http://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/desert/streams-in-the-desert-march-30-11535966.html)
Yet like so many others of strong faith before them, he received the reality of divine healing in this life, but awaited the future revelation, when is faith would be made sight.
And it was because of her husband’s old prolonged illness that Mrs. Cowman would provide to the Christian world oneof the most famous daily devotionals ever written. The reality is that if everyone was healthy and wealthy then we would be a most shallow people, as suffering within the body of Christ is actually necessary to enlarge our hearts. For as the Scriptures teach, this fosters interdependence and community, “For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. “ (1 Corinthians 12:24-26)
And in our quest for a immediate deliverance and healing, we miss the greater priority God’s, who has predestinated us to be “joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together,” (Romans 8:17) For this is a attribute of saving faith.
“There is a spiritual law of choosing, believing, abiding, and holding steady in our walk with God, which is essential to the working of the Holy Ghost either in our sanctification or healing.” Charles E Cowman
Now for me to walk in it as i should.
Well, then perhaps that is when the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with groanings that cannot be uttered? In other words, that's when it may be time for us to shut up and let HIM do the praying for us. And, just in case you go where I think you might, it is NOT us praying with the groanings, it is us NOT saying anything but surrendering to the Lord to hear our deepest needs BY the Holy Spirit within us.
Are you calling me a liar?
An actual question! I'm thrilled. If by "partial knowledge" you mean what Scripture describes as us "knowing in part" then I would say, YES, it will "pass away". It is speaking of "revealed knowledge" and that was ended when the canon of Scripture closed - when the Apostle John completed Revelation. All that God desired to reveal to us is in there and no other "prophets" are legitimately in operation anymore. I say "legitimately" because I am aware that there are many self-proclaimed prophets of God out there today, but not one has passed the Biblical test, not one!
Ahem; please note that in the beginning of my post, “in this strategy” should have been (i think) “in this thread lately,” but i did not speak up at the beginning, and the speech to text software i was using does not always have the correct interpretation of natural tongues!
Let me remind you what I WAS responding to with my comment:
Y’all sure make it easier to understand naysayer’s mangling of Scripture given how much y’all —mangle my words; —put erroneous words in my fingers; —put erroneous thoughts in my head; —put erroneous motivations in my heart; yadda yadda yadda Impressive.
All anyone CAN do is read what someone writes or says and base what they comprehend on both the words chosen and, in this forum, the history of past comments. Not only that, but, if you noticed, I am not alone in reading your inference in every word choice you make. Do you accuse your students of "ascribing their inferences and assumptions" about what you say in class? Is it their fault if you do not make yourself understood and at least be consistent? How long do you think this "I'm so misunderstood" gripe is gonna hold up?
Let me repeat, I did NOT say I was "citing" you. I'm weary of having to backtrack for you to remind you of the train of thought on these comments, but it started when you said:
Sooooooooo where on this thread or where ever on FR or where ever anywhere have I ever said such a thing, written such a thing or supported such a thing? What is WITH all this compulstion to drag every straw dog in the neighborhood into such threads? SHEESH!
And I answered:
How about that you endorsed Kenneth Copeland on this very thread, assuring everybody that he is entirely Biblical in his teachings and the excerpt I posted from his website that says "everybody baptized in the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues"? Could THAT be it??? Something, BTW, that you have not yet even addressed.
I repeat, you post a thread endorsing Copeland's ministry. You praise another's view of his Biblical teaching by telling him he made an "anointed" comment. It started, too, when another poster commented about Copeland's teachings that speaking in tongues is the ONLY way to be baptized in the Holy Spirit - essentially saying speaking in tongues is the only way to know one is saved.
What REAALLLY happened is, it was a dodge - something you are quite fond of ascribing to others - of the initial question I asked near the start of the thread that, come to think of it, you have NOT answered. Are you planning to get to it or will it be ignored again? Rather than continue the "outrage" of being mis-cited, just tell us if you agree with Copeland about the above. Is he right or wrong? Anointed on this issue or all wet?
And, if this was really an innocent thread to rejoice in a relative's wife's apparent healing, then why the title, Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc?
What? You don’t have an old nature that wars against your new nature?
If you’re looking within YOUR HEART, you ARE going to end up deceived.
If you search out Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you won’t.
What about Jesus, His one and only begotten of the Father? Jesus asked if that cup couldn’t pass from Him and yet He had to drink it? By your reasoning, God is a murderer and child abuser because of the torturous death on the cross Jesus had to die to pay for our sins.
Now, care to answer the questions about martyrs and God letting them be killed?
Do Gentiles need to be Baptized to be saved?
This is a question for Quix and the only acceptable reference is the Holy Bible and not Copeland.
Well put.
That IS quite a devotional.
Thx.
Maybe you need to pray that the software be blessed with a better gift of interpretation of tongues.
For some reason,
My students don’t have such problems with what I say. I can’t think of a single case lo these many years. If someone misunderstands, or is not clear, they ask questions. I train them to do that very early and give them a variety of ways to do so. Also, the bulk of the rest of the class is quick to help set the occasionally mystified student straight.
However, in terms of the misconstructions on what I say that are so common on FR, THOSE JUST DON’T OCCUR in my classroom. And THAT is really fascinating.
All the more so because as Joya and a list of students—one or more who’s a FREEPER—would attest—what you see on FR is pretty much what you get of me in any context.
However, Maybe I shouldn’t have answered your post at all. It may be over the line into making it personal.
I’ll just walk on by instead of commenting to the specifics of that . . . post to avoid crossing the RM’s line about making it personal.
I find that strange. The posts that are chosen to be answered and the posts that are chosen to be...not confronted...
Anyone who is interested in Quix’s effectiveness in communicating with his students may freepmail me.
I copied this awhile ago and can’t rmember the author but it says well just a portion of Copelands twisted teachings and why it’s dangerous....
The error at the core of the teaching by Kenneth Copeland is that his doctrines... make God subservient to the will and desires of man rather than man being subservient to the will of God............ He teaches that the words that the believer speaks, accompanied by faith on the part of the believer, activate spiritual laws, .......binding God to honor the requests expressed in those words..... because the voice, speaking the right words, is power.......... ‘Words become a power in themselves’ instead of God being the power and source.
God becomes a provider or supplier of everything that the believer wishes or desires,... regardless of the will of God in relation to that believer,... because God cannot refuse the proper request through use of the right words.
Because Kenneth Copeland’s teaching is man-centered instead of God-centered, its focus is on the desires and fulfillments of the fleshly nature of man rather than the spiritual relationship to God........ Rather than the emphasis being on the fruits of the spirit ....it is on the desires and wishes of the physical life; healing, wealth, houses, cars, debt elimination, personal fulfillment, self-esteem, appearance, clothing, control, position, power, prestige, status, etc., etc.
When it is taught that a person can have these things, simply by making a demand of God, that He is bound and obligated to honor, then the attraction becomes irresistible......
..... But, just as a moth is attracted to a flame and consumed in the resulting encounter, people will find that embracing the teaching of Kenneth Copeland may strip them of the wealth they already have,.... and may cause them to loose their soul by refusing to believe the true gospel of the Jesus Christ of the Bible, in favor of the Jesus Christ of Kenneth Copeland and the false gospel that is found in his teaching.
Like another poster said earlier, this subject of "sign gifts" is NOT a matter of salvation but, the personality of the thread, Kenneth Copeland, DOES make it a matter of salvation. He goes so far as to tell people that "speaking in tongues" is a sign of being saved AND that being baptized in the Holy Spirit - which IS an essential part - ALWAYS means speaking in tongues. What he has said is, for all of those who did NOT get the gift of tongues in the first century up until now, they/we are NOT saved. Why some here refuse to rebuke that accursed gospel is beyond me. I guess it's too hard to praise a man's ministry with one breath and then condemn part of it with another. It is NOT a teachable spirit, that's for sure.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.