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To: HarleyD
According to Aquinas he states very clearly (twice actually) that evil is not caused by good except accidentally. I happen to think this view is incorrect.

I realize that God created everything good.

Evil can only be an accident ,Harley or God's goodness has both evil and good in it which is not possible. Evil is always a free will decision outside of the first cause of God

Perhaps you don't understand that accidents are causes of free choices to sin in the same fashion as I can cause an accident to ram my car into another to cause harm

Adam wasn't flawed and God didn't trap Adam. Nor was judgment of Adam a change in Adam's nature. God simply showed Adam and his race that he has a disposition not to do good.

God did not show Adam he has disposition to sin before he sinned ,Harley. Adam and Eve sinned freely just the same as we do today.

169 posted on 03/10/2012 6:15:52 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Evil can only be an accident ,Harley or God's goodness has both evil and good in it which is not possible.

Would you say that all the evil Satan creates is an accident? Would you say the betrayal of Judas was an accident? If a person chose to ram their car into someone else, that would not be an "accident". That is a deliberate choice they have made. It is no different then Adam deliberately choosing to take the fruit.

There is a certain irony in this. Christians are adamant to say they have free will, but when confronted with the fact that they choose to do evil they claim it's an accident. It's not any different then Adam telling God, "The woman YOU gave me made me do it."

It's as though we have soften the term evil with sin. We don't mind saying that we sin but we certainly don't like the idea that sin equals evil. We don't like to think of ourselves as evil but yet we don't mind thinking of ourselves as sinners. Sin = Evil.

Adam and Eve sinned freely just the same as we do today.

I just was told sin (evil) is an accident. Isn't that Aquinas' belief?

Then was Adam and Eve's sin (evil) deliberate or was it an accident? To say they sinned freely implies they deliberately KNEW that they were sinning. God certainly created Adam as good. And while God was giving Adam all sorts of positive commands to do in the garden, everything was hunky-dory. Adam certainly never said "NO". It was when God issued one command of what NOT to do that everything began to unravel. Judgment of Adam came AFTER he had already sinned.

Therefore, the fall of Adam was initiated with disobedience to a single negative command; the first negative command. The motive (i.e. pride) isn't as an important issue as what exactly happened. Adam took the opportunity to disobey, never hesitating. Eve was confused, deceived, but knew she was disobeying something. They both knew they were disobeying and they didn't see any problem in it.

We are predisposed into doing the wrong thing that we are commanded not to do. God made us good but our predisposition to choosing to be disobedient is not reflective on God; rather it is reflective on ourselves and our need to rely upon God. It is no different then God telling Cain,

Yet, no sooner had God utter those words then Cain went out and killed Able. Cain couldn't resist being disobedient because, like us, it's in our nature-our make up. Instead of turning to God to help him out, Cain chose to take the wrong path. If you want to call this "free will" then you have to own up to the fact that with our free will we choose to do evil and thus are evil (sinful) people.

And here we are many years later and God has issued another command-a positive command; believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Yet people cannot do that without the help of God; because we have lost our ability to choose to follow God's positive commands unless He provides the light.

175 posted on 03/11/2012 3:20:07 AM PDT by HarleyD
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