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To: vladimir998
"Nope. According to Greek syntax it is Peter."

As usual you are spot on, but it was more than just syntax. It was the context and content in which He used the syntax of the Rock. The Gospels tell us exactly how and why Jesus determined that His Church would be lead by a Pope as chosen His form of Church governance and that the first Pope was Peter.

God has always chosen a single man to guide His Church and He has guided and protected that person through public and private Revelation. This was true of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Solomon, David and the many judges, kings and prophets that followed. It would be true of His Church too.

In His revelation Jesus specifically discussed the three possible forms of Church governance; the Democratic form, the Oligarchical form, and the Theocratic form before revealing His choice.

In this dialog Jesus asks His Disciples; "Who do the people say that I am?" (Matt 16:16). This was the Democratic option. He got answers varying from Elijah, to John the Baptist, to "One of the Prophets", but no clear, unambiguous or truthful answer. He then asked His Apostles; "Who do you say that I am?". This was the oligarchical form. None responded. These two forms were unambiguously rejected.

Then Peter stepped forward and without consulting the others said; "You are the Christ, the son of the living God.". In response to this Jesus revealed the basis and governance of His Church when He said:

“Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” (Matt 16:17-19)

20 posted on 03/06/2012 11:39:26 AM PST by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: Natural Law

Haven’t heard the argument in #20 before. Very compelling and insightful. Thank you!


21 posted on 03/06/2012 11:45:49 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Natural Law; vladimir998; johngrace

Hold on tight, it’s gonna be a bumpy thread!


23 posted on 03/06/2012 3:10:55 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Natural Law; Apollo5600
I respectfully submit the following:

Your evaluation of that scripture seems legitimate until a deeper examination of the words Christ used shows otherwise. Lets look at what He said.

Matt 16:18
You are “Petros” (a stone or a rock) and upon this “Petra” (a rock, cliff or ledge - a projecting rock, crag or rocky ground) I will build my church.

There is a difference in the Greek words used, their usage and meaning of the word translated “rock” as can be seen by the following:

Please compare to Isaiah 44:8
Is there a God beside me? yea, no “tsuwr”; I know not any.

TSUWR: rock, cliff. rocky wall, cliff.
PETRA: rock, cliff or ledge.
PETROS: a stone or a rock.

Note also the usage of the word TSUWR in Isaiah 8:14
And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock (TSUWR) of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

This passage is repeated in the NT: Romans 9:33 and 1 Peter 2:8. In both cases the Greek word used is Petra in place of the Hebrew Tsuwr. The same Petra (the “rock, cliff or ledge”) upon which Christ told Peter He would build His church. We can then determine that the rock in Isaiah and the rock in 1 Peter and the rock upon which Christ would build His church are one and the same. This agrees with God's assessment that there is no other rock (TSUWR in Hebrew or PETRA in Greek) beside Him.

Petra is also used to illustrate hearing and doing the words of Christ to the man who built his house on the Petra. Tsuwr is used often in the OT to refer to God as a rock of salvation. All implications of a very large stone capable of being built upon.

Examining the other side of the word for rock, we find that Petros is used exclusively as a name for Peter save for only one time that it is translated “rock” in John 1:42 when Jesus called Peter to be his disciple.

That is the context and content regarding the Petra upon which Christ would build His Church.

It is clear to these protestant eyes that Jesus was by no means calling Peter (Petros) the rock upon which the church was to be built but was actually referring to Himself (Petra). He would otherwise contradict Isaiah 44:8 which states there is no other Rock besides God (translated Petra in Greek). This is echoed by Peter himself when he declared that Petra is the rock that causes men to stumble.

In conclusion:
Petra = Jesus Himself, upon which the church is built. No other God besides Petra according to Peter when he quoted Isaiah 44:8.
Petros = Peter, sometimes translated rock according to John.

30 posted on 03/06/2012 7:37:44 PM PST by 1forall (America - my home, my land, my country.)
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