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To: exDemMom; spirited irish; betty boop; YHAOS; wagglebee; GourmetDan
It is quite frustrating to discuss these issues with you because you keep accusing me of saying things which I did not say:

Although you apparently reject my specific scientific discipline as "historical" because I make heavy use of evolutionary theory, I have never heard anyone describing biochemistry as "soft", or any science as "historical"

Back at post 529, I explained that biology has a leg in both historical and experimental science.

Biology has a leg in both methodologies; many of its hypotheses are "historical" (e.g. evolution biology and astrobiology) but not all (e.g. molecular biology.)

And I never said biochemistry was a "soft" science. Indeed, the examples of soft science I gave in that post were psychology, social sciences and anthropology:

That said, the opposite of "hard" science is "soft" science, e.g. psychology, social sciences. Such disciplines are so far removed from either historical or hard sciences, they are not even relevant in this discussion.

In most cases, "soft" sciences do not use a historical record for evidence, e.g. psychology. To whatever extent they do, they would be considered "historical" sciences, e.g. anthropology.

You seem surprised that I would use a source you consider to be credible but truly all the sources I have used are widely accepted, credible sources. Indeed, you are the first in fourteen plus years on this forum to disapprove of Sir Karl Popper as a source.

Your use of the word "historical sciences" still does not match the usages of that term by either the philosophers or Lipps.

Carol Cleland, not Karl Popper, used the term "historical science" - and she used it in the same context as Lipps. In fact, her essay on the subject was quite comprehensive compared to Lipps' few paragraphs on the subject. It is her specialty.

British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: Prediction and Explanation in Historical Natural Science (Cleland)

In earlier work (Cleland [2001], [2002]), I sketched an account of the structure and justification of ‘prototypical’ historical natural science that distinguishes it from ‘classical’ experimental science. This article expands upon this work, focusing upon the close connection between explanation and justification in the historical natural sciences. I argue that confirmation and disconfirmation in these fields depends primarily upon the explanatory (versus predictive or retrodictive) success or failure of hypotheses vis-à-vis empirical evidence. The account of historical explanation that I develop is a version of common cause explanation. Common cause explanation has long been vindicated by appealing to the principle of the common cause. Many philosophers of science (e.g., Sober and Tucker) find this principle problematic, however, because they believe that it is either purely methodological or strictly metaphysical. I defend a third possibility: the principle of the common cause derives its justification from a physically pervasive time asymmetry of causation (a.k.a. the asymmetry of overdetermination). I argue that explicating the principle of the common cause in terms of the asymmetry of overdetermination illuminates some otherwise puzzling features of the practices of historical natural scientists.

You also said:

Apparently, the only evidence you would accept would be a recording made by a time machine that can go back and observe (maybe by time-lapse photography?) the process of evolution as it occurred. That will never exist. Nor will we ever find every single fossil example of every member of a single unbroken lineage stretching back hundreds of millions of years, in which we can see the morphological changes as they occur. That we cannot document every single step along the way does not mean it didn't happen, or that the progression is fundamentally different than what we logically deduce.

To reject the observations that led to the formulation of the theory of evolution, and to its refinements over the years is to essentially reject just about all science--even physics.

Piffle.

Physics is the epitome of hard science.

Newton's theory has withstood many attempts at falsification and it remains accurate for classical level physics work.

However, to do physics at the quantum level, one needs Quantum Mechanics/Quantum Field Theory. Newtonian physics does not apply to that level. Likewise, to do physics at the astronomical level, one needs General Relativity because Newtonian physics does not apply to that level.

Newtonian physics is not treated as dogma as if it had to explain everything or the entire discipline of Physics would die along with it. Nor was it rewritten or modified to incorporate observations at the quantum and astronomical levels.

Compare the treatment of Newton's theory to the treatment of Darwin's theory at different levels of biological observations.

If a laboratory scientist went to lunch with streptococci in his petri dish and returned to find anthrax bacilli instead - he would not be claiming that he had just witnessed evolution, he'd be calling the FBI because a biological weapons terrorist had evidently gained access to his lab.

He would not however be surprised to see gradual changes in the bacteria over time. That he might attribute to evolution - or perhaps adaptation if the same environmental pressures evoked the same changes in every instance.

At the classical level, the field scientist would not be appealing to evolution if he found a litter of bobcats in a wolf's den. He'd be looking for a behavioral explanation or perhaps a prankster. But if he found the beaks of the local finch population to be longer than before, he might attribute it to evolution - or perhaps adaptation if the same phenomenon occurred every time there was a drought.

At the historical level, the field scientist would not be appealing to evolution if he found a human skull in the same location as a dinosaur's fossil. He'd be looking for a prankster. But if he found a less advanced dinosaur in deeper strata, he would probably attribute it to evolution.

But when he did not observe what the hypothesis called for - gradual change over time - which would have applied in the laboratory and field level, rather than falsifying the theory or coming up with a new theory for that level, he came up with a revision, i.e. punctuated equilibrium.

Thus, the theory of evolution is more like dogma than Newton's theory, i.e. "it must be preserved!"

And punctuated equilibrium is a "just so" amendment to a "just so" story. It cannot be otherwise because the evidence in the historical record is spotty. If we had the complete hard and soft tissue specimen for every organism that ever lived and witnessed its origin and the cumulative evidence did not falsify the theory of evolution, then I would not call it a "just so" story.

But as it sits, the scientist at that level is connecting the dots in a very spotty quantization of the continuum. It requires faith and thus, again, is more like dogma than Newton's theory.

And so, no, I do not find biology comparable to physics.

607 posted on 03/19/2012 11:01:22 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; betty boop; YHAOS; wagglebee; GourmetDan
I have long believed (and often stated) that evolution is nothing more than a smokescreen employed by the Darwinists to avoid any discussion of their actual agenda.

There are over six hundred posts on this thread and most of them talk about evolution. However, this thread was never meant to be about evolution, it is about Darwinian eugenics.

The Darwinists have killed MORE THAN ONE BILLION innocent human beings in the past century. But whenever this is brought up the Darwinists immediately try to steer the conversation into a debate about evolution and, unfortunately, we usually take the bait.

608 posted on 03/19/2012 11:23:18 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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