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To: boatbums
As a former Catholic who converted to Biblical Christianity and was baptized in a Southern Baptist church, I am amazed that a Protestant could let go of his eternal security in favor of a religion that calls such assurance a “sin of presumption”.

There will be a Judgment. A Particular Judgment when we die and a Last Judgment. If your ticket is already punched, that Judgment is essentially a complete waste of time. A mere formality........."Hi Jesus, it's me. Let me through. My reservation is already made, remember? Deal with these other poor shmucks."

It isn't a formality.

Jesus announced the Judgment of the last day in his preaching. During this Judgment, both the secrets of hearts and our deeds will be judged.

"For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed: nor hidden, that shall not be known. For whatsoever things you have spoken in darkness, shall be published in the light: and that which you have spoken in the ear in the chambers, shall be preached on the housetops."
Luke 12: 2-4

"For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God."
John 3: 20-21

"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
Romans 2:16

"Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God."
1 Cor 4:5

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And yes, works are important. Our attitude to our neighbor will indicate whether we have accepted or refused God's love, as explicitly stated in Matthew's Gospel:

"But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
Matt 5:22

And again.......

"Judge not, that you may not be judged, For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Matt 7: 1-5

The real clincher, though, comes right at the end of Matthew's Gospel when Jesus makes it plain that our actions towards our brother will determine our eternal destiny.

"And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me".
Matt 25: 31-40.

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A mere gut feeling that one has already been saved is clearly not going to cut it at the Final Judgment.

Yes, yes, I know what you're going to say. You're going to quote to me John 3:

"For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3: 17-18

This does not mean that each man will not be judged on the last day. It means that by rejecting grace in this life, we condemn ourselves by rejecting God's love. Jesus came into the world to save, not to judge but there will be a judgment at the end.

Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3: 13-14

For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins but a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10: 26-31

Until the day we die, the book of our deeds remains open. That is another reason why we cannot presume our ticket is already punched. St. Paul mentions his own fear of being lost when he talks about chastising his body:

"But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway."
1 Cor 9:27

Does that sound like a complacent man? It isn't.

"For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.
1 Cor 4:4

That's a man saying that God will judge me. My conscience does not accuse me of wrongdoing but God will be the final judge. That's the very opposite of presumptuousness.

I’ve even asked a few and not one has been able to answer that question yet.

They've answered it and you've rejected the answer.

Foolish.

"I'm already saved" is latter day heresy. A rotten fruit of the tree of subjectivism and individualism to which many cling.

74 posted on 02/17/2012 8:39:31 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: marshmallow
"I'm already saved" is latter day heresy. A rotten fruit of the tree of subjectivism and individualism to which many cling.

Sorry, but it's been there all the time...

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The scriptures were hidden from Catholics up until the time of Martin Luther...Obviously it was a 'new' revelation to the lay Catholic until Martin Luther revealed it in the language of the people...

And Catholics in droves left your religion as a result of reading and hearing the truth...

82 posted on 02/17/2012 11:28:39 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: marshmallow
This does not mean that each man will not be judged on the last day. It means that by rejecting grace in this life, we condemn ourselves by rejecting God's love. Jesus came into the world to save, not to judge but there will be a judgment at the end.

After all is said and done, it MUST come back to "what must a man do to be saved?". Jesus himself answered that many, many times as well as the same answer being addressed throughout the rest of the New Testament. The answer is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." All this talk of judgment, works, acts of love, good deeds, etc. are not ignored but rather put in the proper context. Will there be a final judgment? Yes. It is called the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20) and it occurs at the end of regular earth time right before God creates a new heaven and a new earth and all the evil and wickedness of the past is wiped clean along with every tear from our eyes. The former things are passed away, behold all things are become new. It is when hell is actually created and Satan with all his demons, the false prophet and the anti-christ as well as all those not found written in the Book of Life are cast into it - the "second death". This is the judgment of the REAL end.

There are also other judgments. One called the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10) where the saved are judged according to their works, but it is NOT a judgment that can result in hell. It is instead a judgment that determines rewards in Heaven. Those that go to this judgment have ALREADY been judged and found NOT condemned. What you so humorously call "getting your ticket punched" is, in essence, what happens to those who are "in Christ" through faith. Let's read what the Apostle Paul taught under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (II Cor. 5:1-9) In I Corinthians 3, Paul speaks about what happens at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is NOT a time that determines destination of Heaven or Hell.

What so many who preach an accursed gospel of salvation by works fail to understand is that we are no longer under condemnation when we have received Christ because he took our judgment in our place by his death on the cross. His blood was shed as a propitiation for our sins - a payment in full - and we have passed from death into life through him. This true Gospel - the good news - is exactly that, we have been redeemed, bought with a price, found in Christ not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)

Paul continued in II Corinthians 5:17-21:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Now, I am pretty sure that this is not the first time you have heard these words. But anyone who hears the Gospel and refuses to accept the gift of God in Christ, WILL face that Great White Throne Judgment because their name will NOT be found in the Lambs Book of Life. They will also face the second death which is what happens to all who reject the gift of God. They will spend eternity paying for their sins separated from God. When you said "A mere gut feeling that one has already been saved is clearly not going to cut it at the Final Judgment.", I, of course, couldn't agree more. We are saved when we by faith trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior. God sees the heart. When we have done this, we are born again into the family of God and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, sealed until the day of our redemption. We are saved by grace through faith NOT of our works. How we live our lives after we are saved demonstrates the sincerity of our faith and a true child of God is changed from the inside out. We walk by faith, not by sight. We WILL be new creatures in Christ, but the good works we do - the love of God and others - are NOT what saves us, they are evidence that we belong to God.

The ONLY way I can express confidence in my salvation is because of God's promises. He wants us to have that assurance and that is why he has said we can KNOW we have eternal life. A true child of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, does not desire to continue in sin but will grow in grace as his faith matures. My confidence is NOT in myself, but in Christ, who loved me and gave his life for me. My trust is in Him.

86 posted on 02/17/2012 2:48:39 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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