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To: raygunfan
this sort of thinking about assured salvation then causes you to use the protestant tactic of reinterpreting plain meaning of scripture, for example, when paul says to ‘work out ones salvation with and trembling, etc....

A Protestant tactic??? On the contrary, it IS a plain reading of Scripture that repeatedly tells a Christian that he can KNOW he has eternal life. What I find happens with people such as yourself, is you take a snippet of Scripture as you did with Paul's "work out ones salvation with and trembling, etc...." and totally miss the who, what, when, where of his meaning. Let's look at that verse and I'll show you what I mean:

Philippians 2:11-16
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.

This was Paul's letter to the believers at Philippi and he was encouraging them to endure whatever hardships that came upon them because of the grace of God that had saved them. If you look at your snippet, "work out ones salvation with and trembling, etc.", and your presumed meaning that in order to be saved you have to work it out yourself, i.e., work for it, then look at the actual verse in its context you can see that that is NOT what Paul is saying at all! He didn't say "work FOR your salvation" but to work out your salvation. How can you work out or exercise something unless you have it? You have been told this piece of a verse shows you must work for your salvation, but now that you have read it do you STILL think that is what Paul was saying? What do you think he meant by saying, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose"? See, that's what I'm talking about. People are taught a certain dogma and shown what they are told is a "proof text" but when they look at it in context and objectively, as well as other Scriptures that deal with the same subject, they come away with a different understanding than what they were told.

You said that the piece of the verse meant that salvation wasn't "assured" and you said it was "plain text". It doesn't need a reinterpretation nor an "appeal to context", although the context IS important as I just showed you. The only ones doing any shoehorning to fit a preconceived dogma is YOU GUYS.

But, you know what? I can speak about the truth of the Gospel, quote Bible verse after verse but it will not sink in until one thing happens. That one thing is a heart that is seeking for the truth from God. Your religion tells you that salvation is by grace. They even go so far as to say it is by faith and belief in Christ as Savior BUT they have to add works to it. When you do that, add works or efforts, deeds, to faith in order to be saved, you cancel out grace. Grace means undeserved, unmerited favor. It means that it is a GIFT. You say, "Okay I'll accept it's a gift...but you can give a gift back, HAH!". Did you see what you just said? You acknowledged salvation is a gift. WHY would anyone in their right mind give back the gift of eternal life??? That is what is called a "non sequitor" which is a statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.

So make up your mind. Are we saved by grace or not? Is it a gift of God or do we have to work for it? Is it grace or works that saves us? It can't be both. Paul said in Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. Got that? Works cancels out grace. If it is by works then it can't be by grace and if it is by grace then it can't be by works. It's one or the other. That, dear raygunfan, is the ONLY reason at all why anyone can have assurance of their salvation. Because it is by God's grace, which he gifts to us, we receive it by faith and we HAVE eternal life.

One final point. You say you choose to follow the Roman Catholic Church and whatever they tell you to believe you are going to obey them, right? Are you aware that many of the early church "fathers" believed and taught a Gospel that matches that of the Reformation leaders much more than that held by the Church of Rome today? It's true. Here is a link that can show you what those first Christians believed and taught and you will see that the Reformation was an attempt to bring the Catholic Church BACK to those teachings that were catholic. The link is http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/faith_alone_in_early_church_writings.htm#II. I hope you have a blessed night.

106 posted on 02/18/2012 7:20:34 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
I think something needs to be clarified here. When Catholics say we do not believe in, once saved always saved, it is not because we do not have knowledge or assurance of our salvation, it is because we believe in free will and not in double predestination. We know we are still sinners and can still be deceived by sin, Satan and the world.

Catholics do not look at salvation as only a one-time event, but also a life long process. We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Salvation takes on many forms in the scriptures, healing, deliverance, forgiveness from sin, all of these in both physical and spiritual realms.

When you post all of those scriptures we are saying Amen.

The issue, once saved always saved, has its roots in Faith Alone, which is not scriptural and is a man made tradition.

I think that you also believe in works. Asking Jesus to come into your heart is a work of faith, is it not?

Going forward to an altar call is a work of faith.

The issue of the Fathers of the church, if what you are saying is true, then Luther would not have invented Scripture Alone. It is because the Fathers looked so Catholic that he rejected them as an authority.

111 posted on 02/18/2012 8:17:42 PM PST by bvmtotustuus (totus tuus Blessed Virgin Mary)
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