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To: Dutchboy88; smvoice; NYer; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; dangus; Cronos; ..

“But, Paul clearly says, “While we were dead in our trespasses and sin, He made us alive in Him.” What part of that required your agreement?”

As the JB Phillips translation puts it:

“But even though we were dead in our sins God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, gave us life together with Christ—it is, remember, by grace and not by achievement that you are saved—and has lifted us right out of the old life to take our place with him in Christ in the Heavens. Thus he shows for all time the tremendous generosity of the grace and kindness he has expressed towards us in Christ Jesus. It was nothing you could or did achieve—it was God’s gift to you. No one can pride himself upon earning the love of God. The fact is that what we are we owe to the hand of God upon us. We are born afresh in Christ, and born to do those good deeds which God planned for us to do.”

All true. Dead in our sins does not mean dead as in no life, but dead because death is all that awaited us. We were dead as the Prodigal Son was dead (”For this is my son—I thought he was dead, and he’s alive again. I thought I had lost him, and he’s found!’”) Yet the son needed to repent and return: “Then he came to his senses and cried aloud, ‘...I will get up and go back to my father...”.

Indeed, we are called sick or captive by Jesus - the Jesus who you claim had nothing to say to Gentiles - for he said, “‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the Gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord’.” - Luke 4

Poor. Brokenhearted. Captive. Blind. Oppressed. AND dead.

And when we were helpless & hopeless, GOD made a way. GOD rescued US. But God does not do it IAW some celestial lottery , but He rescues those who believe His promise. When the Philippian jailer asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, Paul did not reply, “Nothing. It will be done to you. Or not. Let us know...”

Instead, “they replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and then you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they told him and all the members of his household the message of God.” - Acts 16

“Evidently, you did not read the passages quoted by smvoice from Matt. where Jesus called you a “dog” and said He did not come for you (or me), but only to the house of Israel.”

Hmmm...you mean like in that passage the Calvinists reject:

“The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him. Any man who believes in him is not judged at all. It is the one who will not believe who stands already condemned, because he will not believe in the character of God’s only Son. This is the judgment—that light has entered the world and men have preferred darkness to light because their deeds are evil. Anybody who does wrong hates the light and keeps away from it, for fear his deeds may be exposed. But anybody who is living by the truth will come to the light to make it plain that all he has done has been done through God.” - John 3

There is nothing Christian about teaching that Jesus can be ignored by Gentiles, that his teaching was only applicable to Jews.

“Evidently, you did not read the passages quoted by smvoice from Matt. where Jesus called you a “dog” and said He did not come for you (or me), but only to the house of Israel.”

How about we READ that passage together?

“Jesus left that place and retired into the Tyre and Sidon district. There a Canaanite woman from those parts came to him crying at the top of her voice, “Lord, have pity on me! My daughter is in a terrible state—a devil has got into her!”

Jesus made no answer, and the disciples came up to him and said, “Do send her away—she’s still following us and calling out.”

“I was only sent,” replied Jesus, “to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Then the woman came and knelt at his feet. “Lord, help me,” she said.

“It is not right, you know,” Jesus replied, “to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.”

“Yes, Lord, I know, but even the dogs live on the scraps that fall from their master’s table!”

“You certainly don’t lack faith,” returned Jesus, “it shall be as you wish.” And at that moment her daughter was cured.” - Matt 15

Golly...what happened? I thought Jesus didn’t care about her. I thought he rejected her! But in that passage, Jesus TESTED her FAITH, and concluded,

“You certainly don’t lack faith...it shall be as you wish.” And at that moment her daughter was cured.”

It is bizarre that someone would claim the Gospels only apply to Jews, or that the ‘words in red’ can be skipped over by gentiles.


65 posted on 02/14/2012 11:56:55 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers; Dutchboy88; HarleyD
Matt. 15:22-28.

I wanted to answer this first, then get on to the rest of your comment.

Who said it? Jesus. Who did He say it to? A Syrophenician woman. A Greek. A Gentile. (see: Mark 7:26 for comparing Scripture with Scripture for complete picture). What did He say? Once again, compare Matthew with Mark 7:27-30 for completeness. "But Jesus said unto her, Let the CHILDREN FIRST BE FILLED: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord; yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, FOR THIS SAYING go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter."

Why did He say this? Israel, the CHILDREN must first be filled. Once they are filled, they will become a Nation of priests and a blessing to all nations. In order for a gentile to be blessed, there was a time, and there WILL be a time, in the future, when they will have to go through Israel for their blessing from Christ.

So, why did He heal the gentile girl? Because her mother understood that she, as a gentile, was NOT part of the "children who must first be filled." But she was willing to take the crumbs of their filling that were cast under the table. SHE WAS GOING THROUGH ISRAEL, ACKNOWLEDGING CHRIST AS LORD, TO RECEIVE A BLESSING FROM THEIR MESSIAH. She, as a gentile, was acknowledging that she was not worthy of the children's bread, she was a dog, and she UNDERSTOOD Him when He said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 15:24).

Her blessing came about because she went through Israel and blessed Israel as the children, and showed her faith that Israel's God was Lord.

66 posted on 02/14/2012 12:53:14 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: Mr Rogers; Dutchboy88; HarleyD
Matt. 15:22-28.

I wanted to answer this first, then get on to the rest of your comment.

Who said it? Jesus. Who did He say it to? A Syrophenician woman. A Greek. A Gentile. (see: Mark 7:26 for comparing Scripture with Scripture for complete picture). What did He say? Once again, compare Matthew with Mark 7:27-30 for completeness. "But Jesus said unto her, Let the CHILDREN FIRST BE FILLED: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord; yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, FOR THIS SAYING go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter."

Why did He say this? Israel, the CHILDREN must first be filled. Once they are filled, they will become a Nation of priests and a blessing to all nations. In order for a gentile to be blessed, there was a time, and there WILL be a time, in the future, when they will have to go through Israel for their blessing from Christ.

So, why did He heal the gentile girl? Because her mother understood that she, as a gentile, was NOT part of the "children who must first be filled." But she was willing to take the crumbs of their filling that were cast under the table. SHE WAS GOING THROUGH ISRAEL, ACKNOWLEDGING CHRIST AS LORD, TO RECEIVE A BLESSING FROM THEIR MESSIAH. She, as a gentile, was acknowledging that she was not worthy of the children's bread, she was a dog, and she UNDERSTOOD Him when He said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 15:24).

Her blessing came about because she went through Israel and blessed Israel as the children, and showed her faith that Israel's God was Lord.

67 posted on 02/14/2012 12:53:51 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: Mr Rogers; smvoice
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life."

I am unaware of a "calvinist" who rejects any Scripture. Perhaps a difference here is that you read into John 3:16ff an "offer" and I read it as a fact. I would not, however, necessarily call myself a "calvinist". Please tell us what John meant later when he wrote in Chap. 6, "no man comes to me unless the Father has enabled him." vs. 65. He even invited his disciples to leave based on how shocking this situation was. But, Peter is compelled to stay. So, the fact that whoever believes on Him DOES have eternal life, doesn't mean He is saying "anyone who wants to believe on his own" may believe. That part you have added.

Of course, the Scriptures are full of commandments, orders, requests, calls to obey and believe. The question is...can you do this without God causing it? Acts 16:14. And, please recognize, there is an enormous difference between saying that the theology discussed in a section of Scripture (for example the theology of the sacrifices in Leviticus) is a useful, integral part of the story, but not intended for us to actually perform...unless it was directed to us. Certainly, you don't do the sacrifices, do you? How did you decide that they were no longer in effect? And, no the words in red (added by a printer) are no more important than the words in black. If I am not mistaken, the entire Bible is the Word of God.

68 posted on 02/14/2012 12:59:40 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Mr Rogers

Please let me add, I never said that Jesus Christ can be ignored by the non-Jew. That is no part of biblical theology. The point is what is the teaching he is giving to His Jewish children about obedience is Law this is not the Gospel. As He says towards the end of His three years, “This is the work of my Father, that you believe in Me.” Not, forgive or you won’t be forgiven, etc. That is the Law and the Prophets. Read the so-called Golden Rule at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, He says, this is the Law and the Prophets. Grace is yet to be poured out...


69 posted on 02/14/2012 1:07:34 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Mr Rogers; Dutchboy88; HarleyD
"And he (Peter) said unto them, Ye KNOW how that it is an UNLAWFUL THING for a man that is a Jew to KEEP COMPANY, or COME UNTO ONE OF ANOTHER NATION; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." Acts 10:28.

God showed Peter, through a vision, and Peter doubted in hmself what this vision which he had seen should mean (Acts 9:17).

How could Peter say "it is an UNLAWFUL THING for a Jew to KEEP COMPANY or COME UNTO ONE OF ANOTHER NATION", if Peter and the 11 understood they were to preach the gospel to all nations? This is as late as Acts 10 that Peter is saying this and doubting what his vision meant.

If, from the moment Christ gave them the "great commission", they knew they would be preaching the gospel to all nations, Jew and Gentile, then explain to me Acts 10:28 please.

And I will add the question at this point, WHAT gospel were they to preach to all nations?

72 posted on 02/15/2012 4:52:54 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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