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To: CynicalBear; NYer; cloudmountain
Take a hint. She wasn’t supposed to be venerated or the apostles would have written about it. As I said earlier, the entire myth of Mariology is just that. Myth. Not sanctioned by scripture.

Are you saying that if it isn't in the Bible, it didn't happen?

(In other words, if there is no mention in the Bible of the original Apostles dying, to you that means they didn't die, or that they were not shown great honor when they died, simply because it wasn't recorded in the Bible? If you do not know the exact circumstances of their deaths, do you then automatically assume those deaths could not possibly have happened? Or would you have to say, "perhaps they died here, at such-and-such date, or perhaps they died there, at this other date -- we don't know for sure"?) Do you really think it would have been unlikely that the other Christians showed them all great honor at their deaths, even if that wasn't recorded in the Holy Scriptures?

By the way, you do understand that "venerate" simply means (by definition) to show great respect, honor, and love towards a person, don't you? (It does NOT mean worship.)

Jesus told the rich guy (recorded in Mark 10) that one of the things he should do to obtain eternal life was to obey the commandments, and he pointed out several specific ones, including the commandment to honor one's father and mother. Do you think Jesus honored his own mother? Do you think Jesus would want everyone else to honor his mother Mary as well? Do you think the original Apostles honored the mother of Jesus?

While (to my knowledge) no one has ever stated that a person must honor Mary in order to gain salvation, it would also appear to me to be a very unwise thing to in some way dis-honor the mother of Jesus, who is God.

(In fact, you should never dishonor anyone's mother.)
73 posted on 02/03/2012 6:57:51 PM PST by Heart-Rest ( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: Heart-Rest
Of course you would like us to believe you don’t worship her.

Let’s take the prayer of Prayer of Pope Pius XII.
[http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm]

I’ll use just the bolded excerpts from the prayer.

we cast ourselves into your arms

1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (When did we need to replace God with Mary?)

confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary)

O crystal fountain of faith

Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or "a measure of faith." (but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics)

Lily of all holiness

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary)

Conqueress of evil and death

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death)

Convert the wicked

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary)

Statement by catholic Bishop Liqouri “.......We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.....” She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help”

Need I go on? Catholics have replaced virtually every attribute and working of God and given that to Mary in their worship.

77 posted on 02/03/2012 7:30:45 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Heart-Rest
>> Do you think Jesus honored his own mother?<<

Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, (Greek Menounge: nay surely, nay rather) blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

>>While (to my knowledge) no one has ever stated that a person must honor Mary in order to gain salvation,<<

'Therefore, if some should presume to think in their hearts otherwise than we have defined (which God forbid), they shall know and thoroughly understand that they are by their own judgment condemned, have made shipwreck concerning the faith, and fallen away from the unity of the Church; and, moreover, that they, by this very act, subject themselves to the penalties ordained by law if, by word or writing, or any other external means, they dare to signify what they think in their heart' (The Decree of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, From the Bull Ineffabilis Deus [A.D. 1854]. Taken from Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, 2:212).

80 posted on 02/03/2012 7:38:53 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Heart-Rest
>>While (to my knowledge) no one has ever stated that a person must honor Mary in order to gain salvation,<<

'We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. Hence, if anyone, which God forbid, should dare wilfully to deny or call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has completely fallen from the divine and Catholic faith….It is forbidden to any man to change this, Our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul' (Munificentissimus Deus [A.D. 1950], 44-45, 47; taken from Selected Documents of Pope Pius XII [Washington: National Catholic Welfare Conference])

82 posted on 02/03/2012 7:41:07 PM PST by CynicalBear
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