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To: Dutchboy88

all of your charges are distortions of belief.

And although it is easy to correct lies, for distortions it takes a longer explanation to show the subtle twisting that results in the charges.

For example: Catholic worship mary

Well, Catholics and Orthodox christians have honored Mary since about 200 AD (I’d have to link to the church fathers here) and then I would have to explain how catholics define worship (e.g. the mass, where we offer the body and blood of Christ to God) not just hymns and prayers.

Singing a hymn to Mary is no more “worship” for a catholic than singing the Notre Dame fight song is woshiping football.

Then I would have to define the differences between limited honor we give for men we admire including the saints and our honor of God.

Then I would have to point out the linguistic meaning of the word “pray”, which in the past merely meant to ask or supplicate for a favor. e.g. Pray tell me sir is a phrase in Shakespeare.

Then I would have to point out the scripture that tells us that we have a crowd of witnesses helping us, implying that those in heaven are aware of us.

And then I would have to quote James and point out that not only are we allowed to ask folks to pray for us, but that asking the prayer of a holy man is especially helpful.

Then I would have to explain to you the concept of “communion of saints” that means the christian family includes those in heaven and those of us on earth linked as one family.

Finally, I would have to point out to you that many of the doctrines about Mary are actually about Jesus.

For example, by stressing she was the “mother of god” is more about the reality of Jesus being both God and Man, at a time when the Arians and others were insisting that Jesus was a demigod like Hercules, not God.

Indeed, even Elizabeth said “why would the mother of my Lord come to help me”...essentially recognizing that Mary had a baby who was God inside her womb at that time Mary was only a few weeks pregnant.

Etc. etc.


52 posted on 01/26/2012 7:26:27 PM PST by LadyDoc
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To: LadyDoc
From the Catholictradition.org.

"Why Catholics Pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Many non-Catholics have been trained from childhood to believe that one of the clear proofs of the falsity of Catholicism is to be found in the honor that is paid to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church, and in the innumerable trusting prayers that are offered to her by Catholics. At the same time it is true that many non-Catholics, when they learn what are the genuine foundations of Catholic devotion to Mary , are drawn by it so irresistibly that. ultimately they become Catholics. For the truth is very simple and clear, and is all contained in the following two truths.

1. Mary is the Mother of God. Catholics do not believe that God was bound by any compulsion to have a Mother; they believe that He chose to have a Mother and all that this implies. He chose to permit His human body to be formed in her womb.

He chose to permit her to bring Him forth as a tiny baby into the world. He chose to let her feed Him at her breast, carry Him in her arms, guard Him from danger, and teach Him as any child would be taught, to walk and speak and pray. He thereby chose to grant Mary a power over Him that only love can bestow. Catholics believe that in choosing a mother, the Son of God chose to grant her the power over His will that the love of a good mother always wields over a good son.

2. Mary is a mother to all men. Catholics believe that the Son of God chose to come into the world through a mother in order that that mother might accept as His brothers all the children of the sinful race of man. He set an example as to how she should be honored and loved. He prepared her for this motherhood of all by asking her to suffer every conceivable form of pain, thus teaching her sympathy for the sorrows of her children. Had she been His Mother alone, He would have spared her from pain, because He had the power to do so and because He loved her with an infinite love. He wrought His first public miracle at her request, and when He was dying He reminded her that she had been destined from the beginning to be a Mother to all. Catholics therefore believe that Mary will be as eager to help them, in troubles of soul and body, as every natural mother is eager to promote the welfare of her child.

The rosaries that Catholics recite are but the expression of their belief in these two truths. They know that if Mary speaks to her Divine Son in their behalf, there can be no doubt about their receiving an answer to their prayers."

These folks take a different view of Mary worship than you do. But, the Catholic claim that Mary is the Mother of all men is nonsense. And, your attempt to spin "praying" in a different light than these folks take do doesn't work.

"Then I would have to point out the linguistic meaning of the word “pray”, which in the past merely meant to ask or supplicate for a favor. e.g. Pray tell me sir is a phrase in Shakespeare."

Not sure if you are new around here, but Mariolatry is a well-documentd Catholic error. Your comparison does not apply. The word "up" has dozens of meanings, but the definition of the word "pray" in the Catholic Tradition org website is the definition of prayer which the Bible reserves to God, alone. That Mary is considered a co-redemptrix and able to answer prayer (real prayer) reveals this heresy. Soft peddling the incorrect reverence does not change this.

The veneration of "Saints" (with a capital S) is another error you attempt to minimize. You use a small "s", the way the Scripture considers all real believers in Christ to be saints (holy ones). Saint Bruno was not canonized by virtue of being a believer along with all other believers. This "tier" rating is unbiblical and a heresy. Smoozing the incorrect veneration does not change this.

There is no biblical support for a eucharistic view of the bread and wine. Jesus simply said, "Do this in remembrance of me." He was making a point that His blood and His body would be the solution to our deep needs, He was not converting the "elements" into real flesh and blood. To claim that now a man in bathrobe can say some words over the cup and transubstantiate it into the real blood of Christ (even mystically) is beyond the pale. Such is found nowhere in Scripture. Smearing the edges of a faulty claim does not change this.

I notice you did not attempt to justify sacerdotalism, papalism, indulgences or any of the other heretical positions of Rome. Rome has lost its way. But, not every person involved with Catholicism is lost, but that is in spite of Rome, not because of Rome.

59 posted on 01/27/2012 11:21:00 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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