What I see in William Webster’s “scholarship” is an attempt to spin the Church Fathers into a Protestant frameworks, which is unhistorical and dishonest.
All of the polemics from Evangelical posters always ignore the role of Tradition in the Eastern Churches, which more or less agrees with that of Rome from a relatively early date.
So to say it is something that the Roman papacy invented in the Middle Ages is quite spurious.
The facts are that the early Church canons overruled those in the Church who objected to including the disputed books in the canon.
None of the fathers, however, agreed with the Protestant designation that they are “apocryphal” like the Books of Jubilees, Enoch, or the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs.
That is correct,dear friend.The following information shows Webster is either uneducated on the Church Fathers or worse,he is an evil manipulator who is in it for money.
from...http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num34.htm
William Webster's Skewed History of the Eucharist
For a different view we have this bold statement from William Webster: "For the first 1200 years of the Church's life there was no unanimity on the nature of the eucharist." (page 127)
In an admittedly unique book, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History (Banner of Truth, 1995), former Catholic turned Evangelical William Webster tackles the Church Fathers themselves and attempts to make a case for Evangelical Protestant Christianity from them, or at least tries to neutralize Catholic dogma by appealing to their undeveloped terminology and doctrines. But it is a losing battle since there is too much in the Fathers that Webster has to ignore. Much of what we find in his chapter on the Eucharist is a distortion of the Fathers as he tries to force them into his Evangelical "symbolical" views, ignoring everything else they said. For example, he has a long paragraph on Tertullian claiming:
"Tertullian...spoke of the bread and wine in the eucharist as symbols and figures which represent the body and blood of Christ. He specifically stated that these were not the literal body and blood of the Lord....His interpretation of John 6 similarly indicates that when he spoke of the bread and wine as figures and symbols of Christ's body and blood, that is exactly what he meant. He says that Christ spoke in spiritual terms when referring to the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood and did not mean this literally...Clearly he did not teach the concept of transubstantiation." (The Church of Rome at the Bar of History by William Webster, page 119)
A couple of things in response. First, while it is true some of the Fathers (such as Tertullian, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria) employed more symbolical and allegorical interpretations of John 6:51ff, it is clear at the same time they had a literal and very realist view of the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ. This is admitted and confirmed by JND Kelly, Darwell Stone, even Philip Schaff.
Tertullian (while not technically a Church Father, since he later became a Montanist) affirms that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ (granted he did not use the term "transubstantiation" since as I have explained it took time for the terminology to develop), and is a sacrifice of benefit even for departed Christians:
"The flesh feeds on THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST, so that the SOUL TOO may fatten on God." (Resurrection of the Dead 8:3)
"Likewise, in regard to days of fast, many do not think they should be present at the SACRIFICIAL prayers, because their fast would be broken if they were to receive THE BODY OF THE LORD...THE BODY OF THE LORD HAVING BEEN RECEIVED AND RESERVED, each point is secured: both the participation IN THE SACRIFICE..." (Prayer 19:1)
"The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord commanded to be taken at meal times and by all, we take even before daybreak in congregations... WE OFFER SACRIFICES FOR THE DEAD on their birthday anniversaries.... We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread should fall upon the ground..." (The Crown 3:3-4)
For more see my article on Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria which details the more "symbolical" and "allegorical" language of these Fathers and demonstrates they did not deny the literal and realist understanding of the Eucharist. So even while using the terms "symbol" and "figure" and "type" in referring to the Eucharist at points the Church Fathers did not adopt the purely "symbolical" or "figurative" interpretation that Webster and the rest of the Evangelical critics hold. The Council of Trent even uses the word "symbol" when referring to the Eucharist, and there is no problem here. The error is to stop there and not affirm that the "symbol" is in a real sense what it symbolizes (the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood).
Webster includes a number of carefully selected citations from the Fathers (in appendix 8 on Real Presence we have excerpts from the Didache, Justin, Theophilus, Clement of Alexandria, Cyprian, Eusebius, Athanasius, Augustine; in appendix 9 on Sacrifice we have the Didache, Justin, Origen, Eusebius, Chrysostom, Augustine), and tries to force many of the Fathers into his "symbolical" and "figurative" views in his chapter on the Eucharist. What Webster seems to do is search through the Fathers for passages that contain the words "memorial" and "symbol" and "figure" while ignoring their most explicit passages on the Real Presence and sacrifice, and disregards the rest of what they wrote and believed. This is not proper "historiography" (to use one of his favorite terms). It is obvious that one should interpret the more obscure and symbolical phrases in light of the more explicit.
Again, for the full story see This is My Body: Eucharist in the Early Fathers
Webster also distorts the teaching of St. Augustine by suggesting "the theological giant who provided the most comprehensive and influential defense of the symbolic interpretation of the Lord's Supper was Augustine...These views of Augustine are obviously in direct opposition to those of the Council of Trent" (page 120-121). To see how wrong Webster is go to St. Augustine on the Eucharist
"From the beginning of the Church the Fathers generally expressed their belief in the Real Presence in the eucharist, in that they identified the elements with the body and blood of Christ, and also referred to the eucharist as a sacrifice, but there was considerable difference of opinion among the Fathers on the precise nature of these things, reflected in the fact that the ancient Church produced no official dogma of the Lord's Supper." (The Church of Rome at the Bar of History by William Webster, page 117)
Here Webster concedes that the Fathers generally believed in the Real Presence, they identified the elements with the body and blood of Christ, and referred to the Eucharist as a sacrifice. So far so good. And there is no problem with the statement that the "precise nature" of the Eucharist was not explicitly defined, since this is true of a lot of beliefs in the early Church, such as the Holy Trinity. When controversies arise, then official dogma needs to be formally and explicitly defined to separate the orthodox from the heretics. For the Eucharist, this was not necessary until the later 9th and 11th century controversies, resulting in the adoption of the term "transubstantiation" at the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215, and finally in response to the Protestant Reformation at the Council of Trent.
"As time passed clearer descriptions of the eucharist as the transformation of the elements into the literal body and blood of Christ emerged in the writings of the Fathers such as Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzen, Chrysostom and Ambrose." (Webster, page 120)
Thank you, Bill. Here Webster concedes that the "transformation" or "conversion" view was clearly present in such great Fathers of the fourth century Church. Thanks for the admission. What he does not mention is these same Fathers who were quite explicit in their belief on the Eucharist, also employed at the same time such terms as "symbol" and "figure" and "type" which clearly shows we should interpret the more "symbolical" language in light of the more explicit passages.
For example, St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 350 AD) used the words "figure" and "antitype" in his Catechetical Lectures concerning the Eucharist:
"Let us, then, with full confidence, partake of the Body and Blood of Christ. For in the figure of bread His Body is given to you, and in the figure of wine His Blood is given to you, so that by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, you might become united in body and blood with Him. For thus we become Christ-bearers, His Body and Blood being distributed through our members. And thus it is that we become, according to the blessed Peter, sharers of the divine nature [2 Pet 1:4]." (Catechetical Lectures 22 [Mystagogic 4], 3; also 23 [Mystagogic 5], 20 for the word "antitype")
Along with these we find such explicit statements as:
"For just as the bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ..." (Catechetical Lectures 19 [Mystagogic 1], 7)
"Once in Cana of Galilee He changed the water into wine, a thing related to blood; and is His changing of wine into Blood not credible? When invited to an ordinary marriage, with a miracle He performed that glorious deed. And is it not much more to be confessed that He has betowed His Body and His Blood upon the wedding guests?" (22 [Mystagogic 4], 2)
"Do not, therefore, regard the Bread and the Wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but -- be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the Body and Blood of Christ." (22 [Mystagogic 4], 6)
"Having learned these things, and being fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the apparent Wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so..." (22 [Mystagogic 4], 9)
"Then, having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual songs, we call upon the benevolent God to send out the Holy Spirit upon the gifts which have been laid out: that He may make the bread the Body of Christ, and the wine the Blood of Christ; for whatsoever the Holy Spirit touches, that is sanctified and changed." (23 [Mystagogic 5], 7)
St. Cyril of Jerusalem continues with similar statements and calls the Eucharist and Mass in most explicit language a "propitiatory sacrifice" since Christ is offered as the "propitiatory victim" both for living saints and for departed souls, that Christian priests should "offer this sacrifice for all who are in need," that it is of very great benefit for the souls who have fallen asleep "while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out," we not only offer our prayers for departed Christians, but in the Eucharist we "offer up Christ who has been sacrificed for our sins; and we thereby propitiate the benevolent God for them as well as for ourselves." (23 [Mystagogic 5], 8, 9, 10). With such beautiful Catholic language reminicient of the later Council of Trent, who would dare say this fourth century Saint and Father held to a purely "symbolical" or "figurative" Eucharist? As a side note: Webster, White, Svendsen, et al believe St. Cyril of Jerusalem firmly taught Sola Scriptura. If so, how do they explain the above?
After warning us that the Fathers need to be examined with "great caution" since "it is very easy to take a preconceived theology of the eucharist and read it back into their comments and teachings" (page 117-118) Webster seems to contradict himself a few pages later when he suggests
"There is the literal view of transubstantiation which could be that expressed by Chrysostom; the Lutheran view of consubstantiation, which could be that taught by Irenaeus or Justin Martyr; the spiritual view of Calvin, which is closely aligned with Augustine; and the strictly symbolic view of Zwingli, which is similar to that expressed by Eusebius." (Webster, page 122)
I would say none of this is correct. It is true the Fathers did not use the term "transubstantiation" but they were also unaware of "consubstantiation" or other such terms. And none of them held a strictly "symbolic" or "spiritual" (whatever that word may mean) view. We can agree it is wrong to read the later Eucharistic controversies of the 9th, 11th, or 16th centuries back into the Fathers, however to assume the Fathers held opposing views (the literal vs. the symbolic) is not consistent with the evidence. The terminology was indeed more fluid and less refined since there was no defined dogma on the Eucharist but at the same time there was no real controversy on the doctrine during the patristic age. Webster is trying to pit the Fathers against one another by suggesting they were as confused on the nature of the Eucharist as modern Protestant sects. This is clearly anachronistic.
Jaroslav Pelikan, the Lutheran scholar who later converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, writes in The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine series:
"...the doctrine of the real presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist...did not become the subject of controversy until the ninth century. The definitive and precise formulation of the crucial doctrinal issues concerning the Eucharist had to await that controversy and others that followed even later. This does not mean at all, however, that the church did not yet have a doctrine of the Eucharist; it does mean that the statements of its doctrine must not be sought in polemical and dogmatic treatises devoted to sacramental theology. It means also that the effort to cross-examine the fathers of the second or third century about where they stood in the controversies of the ninth or sixteenth century is both silly and futile." (Jaroslav Pelikan, volume 1, page 166-7)
For a short balanced treatment of the Fathers on the Eucharist, I would suggest the classic non-Catholic work Early Christian Doctrines by JND Kelly (chapter 8 for the ante-Nicene, and chapter 16 for the post-Nicene Fathers), which Webster does refer to in his endnotes, although Kelly contradicts Webster at a number of points. For an exhaustive study, the older two-volume work A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist by the Anglo-Catholic scholar Darwell Stone is available through inter-library loan. A third important work by a Jesuit scholar is titled Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Reformation (1960) by Francis Clark which shows in great detail the errors and misunderstandings of Protestants concerning the Eucharist in the sixteenth century and the consistency of the Catholic belief by the great Fathers and Doctors of the Church.