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To: BenKenobi; smvoice; metmom

Paul most certainly DID claim to be an Apostle.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

1Cr 1:1 Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and our brother Sosthenes,

1Cr 9:1-5 Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? 2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 This is my defense to those who would examine me. 4 Do we not have the right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

Tts 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

“4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles...

...12 And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ...

But whatever anyone else dares to boast of—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast of that. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas was guarding the city of Damascus in order to seize me, 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands.

1 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses— 6 though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

11 I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I was not at all inferior to these super-apostles, even though I am nothing. 12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. 13 For in what were you less favored than the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong!

2 Cor 11-12


Anyone claiming Paul was not an Apostle denies the scripture. If our belief rests on the work and witness of Twelve Apostles, then I’m pretty certain Paul will be one of them.


88 posted on 01/03/2012 10:12:47 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers

“Anyone claiming Paul was not an Apostle denies the scripture. If our belief rests on the work and witness of Twelve Apostles, then I’m pretty certain Paul will be one of them.”

I did not claim he was not an Apostle. All I said is that he wasn’t one of the 12. Mattias was appointed before Paul had converted.

1 Cor 15:9

“For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God”


90 posted on 01/03/2012 10:34:36 AM PST by BenKenobi (You know, you really need to break free of that Catholic mindset - "an ex-catholic":)
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To: Mr Rogers; metmom
Paul absolutely was an Apostle. He was the Apostle to the Gentiles. But he was not appointed the 12th Apostle, to fill the vacancy left by Judas. Jesus Christ had His reason for giving Paul a different message and a different commission. A close look at Acts gives us the reasons:

1. The apostles, with Peter as their chief, had been given authority to act officially in Christ's absence. (Matt. 16:19, 18: 18,19.

2.It was stated in Psalms that another should be appointed to Judas' place (Psa. 109:8, Acts 1:20).

3. The twelfth apostle HAD to be chosen BEFORE the kingdom could be offered at Pentecost.(Matt.19:28). Note how Peter stands up with the eleven in Acts 2:14.

4. The apostle's actions were bathed in prayer. They did not proceed until after MANY DAYS OF UNITED PRAYER (Luke 24:49, cf. Acts 1:12-15), and when the two candidates, Matthias and Barsabas were found they AGAIN PRAYED and left the final choice to God. (Acts 1:24-26).

5. The only ones who could qualify for the position of the twelfth apostle were those who had followed with Christ all during His earthly ministry, "beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up.." (Acts 1:21,22,.cf. Matt. 19:28.

6. For this reason alone Paul would not have been eligible. He did not even see Christ until after His ascension.

7. Paul was not even saved at the time of the choosing of the 12th apostle. The Bible even states that "AFTER THAT" (after the day of Pentecost) he "persecuted the church of God and laid it waste" (Gal. 1:13).

8. The final and conclusive proof that the eleven acted in the WILL OF GOD in choosing Matthias is found in the fact that the Scripture clearly states that Matthias "was NUMBERED WITH THE ELEVEN APOSTLES" (Acts 1:26), and that "They were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST" (Acts 2:4). This would INCLUDE Matthias.

If the apostles had been out of the will of God in so important a matter they would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Nor would Matthias have been filled with the Holy Spirit if he had NOT BEEN DIVINELY CHOSEN FOR THAT PARTICULAR POSITION. A man out of the will of God is NEVER filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is the whole point of the naming of the 12th Apostle prior to the day of Pentecost. They will sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel when Christ returns and sets upon His throne.

Paul cannot be considered as one with the twelve, for just as eleven apostles would have been too few for God's kingdom plans, so thirteen would have been too many. Paul's apostleship was separate and distinct from that of the twelve. There will be 12 thrones (besides Christ's) in the kingdom, not 13. It's pretty obvious from this that Paul belonged to ANOTHER PROGRAM and was sent forth to proclaim ANOTHER MESSAGE. Otherwise, he would have been the 12th apostle.

It is also significant that Paul also speaks of the twelve as a SEPARATE BODY OF APOSTLES when he says that the resurrected Christ was "seen...of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15:5). This reference to TWELVE APOSTLES between the resurrection and ascension, is further proof that Matthias was, by God, considered one of the twelve from the beginning. He was apparently with the apostles when the risen Christ appeared to them (Acts 1:21-23).

Peter and the 11, including Matthias, were the Apostles of the Kingdom and will be seated on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, when Christ returns and sets up the Kingdom.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, forming the Church the BOdy of Christ, during this age of the grace of God, until the fulness of the Gentiles be brought in. And God once again turns His attention to the Nation of Israel in particular.

145 posted on 01/03/2012 2:29:31 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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