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To: BenKenobi; CynicalBear; metmom; presently no screen name; boatbums; caww; daniel1212
No. I am not an ex-Catholic. I am reading something that seems to suggest that the RCC hasn't always held the stance on abortion that she does today. Seems she has changed her mind often through the years.

"Moreover, unlike the Bible, written tradition and official dogma of the Church have frequently changed, even propounding contradictory ideas on such important topics as abortion. Most Catholics are not aware that the infallible Church and popes have changed their minds several times on this topic-unthinkable from today's perspective.

From the fifth century onward, Aristotle's view that the embryo goes through stages from vegetable to animal to spiritual was accepted. Only in the final stage was it human. Thus Gregory VI (1045-6) said, "He is not a murderer who brings about abortion before the soul is in the body." Gregory XIII (1572-85) said it was NOT homicide to kill an embryo of less than 40 days since it wasn't yet human. His successor, Sixtus V, who rewrote the Bible, disagreed. His Bull of 1588 made all abortion for any reason homicide and cause for excommunication. His successor, Gregory XIV, REVERSED that decree. In 1621 the Vatican issued ANOTHER pastoral directive PERMITTING abortion up to 40 days. As late as the eighteenth century the Church's greatest moral theologian, St. Alphonsus de Liguori, still DENIED that the soul was infused at conception and ALLOWED FOR FLEXIBILITY, especially when the mother's life was in danger. Finally, in 1869, Pius IX declared that any destruction of any embryo was an abortion and merited excommunication- a view that remains to this day." - Dave Hunt, "A Woman Rides the Beast." Appendix F, pp. 519-520.

So much for the unchanging and infallible Church.

Does the Catholic Church have any holdings in pharmaceutical companies that produce anything based on contraception? Think carefully about that.

596 posted on 01/06/2012 5:30:56 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

“I am reading something that seems to suggest that the RCC hasn’t always held the stance on abortion that she does today. Seems she has changed her mind often through the years.”

Well, the Didache teaches the following:

“And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.”

Didache was written around the time of the first century. It was known to Eusebius and was cited by the early church fathers.

Abortion has always been banned by the Catholic church. The debate has been, “when does pregnancy begin”? “when does personhood begin”? “when does the unborn child go from being part of the mother to being an independent entity.”

As you’ve noted, Aristotle’s understanding was the best science at the time. We’re talking about a time when they knew very little about the body, and even less about pregnancy.

As technology has progressed and demonstrated that Aristotle was wrong, the doctrine has changed to reflect this greater understanding of the unborn child.

As you’ve noted, this was a significant scientific debate, one that wasn’t set to conception, (because conception wasn’t properly understood), until then.

Even so, the debate was never that abortion was permissible, only over when pregnancy begins and how it works. Do note that by the early 16th century, it was set to 40 days, and no later, IOW all abortion after 40 days was banned outright.


598 posted on 01/06/2012 5:43:20 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: smvoice

Wow! What a find! How long before Catholics deny that information or claim it’s from a “nefarious” source?


599 posted on 01/06/2012 5:47:26 PM PST by CynicalBear
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