Posted on 12/30/2011 7:07:29 PM PST by rzman21
Thank you for your own honest reply. For for me, having been raised to devout Roman Catholic, it was just the opposite. Though I was raised a faithfully practicing Catholic, i became truly born again, a heart and life-changing experience in which even nature seemed new, at about age 25. I was not looking for Jesus in the Lord’s supper, but found Him speaking to me through his Scriptures and His spiritual leading.
And I consider Episcopalians to be part of the entire institutionalized church, in which very very few have had a day of salvation when they were manifestly born again.
As for Catholics leaving Rome to go to an evangelical church for freedom to use contraception, again, Catholics have no problem doing that anyway, among other things.
Do you perceive that you could ever stop being a Christian? Is your faith so weak that something could come along to shake loose your belief in Jesus Christ? You say you doubt yourself, so, if I hear what you are saying, it sounds like you have not been wholly convinced that you have a valid reason for trusting in Christ and believing in him. Is that really the case?
Because the way I see it, we surrender to Jesus as the true God incarnate, who died for our sins, so that we can be saved. When we sincerely do that, we are not just left high and dry to worry until the day we die that we have a legitimate faith. God goes to work, essentially, by indwelling us with the Holy Spirit and creating within us a new, spirit nature, that IS in evidence. Those that have accepted Christ, receiving him as Savior, ARE different. There IS a transformation that happens where the old "me" no longer wants the bad, it finds no joy in sin. My new nature yearns to know God and to please him in all I do. When the old sin nature flares up and I do wrong, I notice a break in my fellowship with God, I sense a barrier in my relationship with Jesus. I KNOW that I must repent and confess my sin to God and I KNOW he forgives me, cleanses me and restores that link, that fellowship with him. The more trials and temptations I endure, the stronger my faith grows and the closer I move towards Him - because it IS Him within me, living in grace, working on faith. The "old" me had no such activity before I came to Christ. Doing "wrong" only bothered me when I got caught and got punished. The "new" me desires to please God because of all that he has done for Me and because He IS my God and King. Ephesians 2:10 says he created us "unto" good works that he has prepared for us. Our desire is changed towards Him.
Now, I said all that to demonstrate that this change is EVIDENCE that we are HIS. The very purpose of the indwelling Holy Spirit is so that he is the earnest, or guarantee, of our destination. Scripture says we are "sealed" until the day of redemption. No one breaks the seal but God, we cannot do that because we belong to Him now. If God were to send us to Hell after he gave us His Spirit, He would be sending Himself to hell with us. That ain't gonna happen! The presence of the Spirit within us is evidence of our salvation.
There is nothing we can do to undo our adoption into His family. Even in the parable of the Prodigal Son, even when the guy left the family and took all his money with him, he NEVER stopped being the son of the Father. When he came back, he wasn't repelled, he wasn't put to work as a servant - though he sure deserved it - but he was welcomed home, STILL the son, STILL in the family. Jesus told that story for a reason and I believe it is to show us how deep his love is for us, that he will never cast us away, never lose us, never let ANYONE snatch us from His hands. THAT, my FRiend, is the ONLY way that we can KNOW, right now, that we have everlasting life. When we receive Him, he places His mark on us and He will not lose even one of us. That is the only way and the only reason that I can truthfully say that I know I am saved. It's all because of Him. I sincerely pray that you too can know this blessed assurance.
God HAS already paid the penalty of all our sins. When we are found IN Christ, we have HIS righteousness, not our own, so that is why Jesus said, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." (John 3:18) When you accepted Jesus, your sins HAVE been forgiven, even the ones you have yet to commit, and He saves you by grace. That is what grace is - undeserved, unmerited, unearned - all because of His mercy and love. Jesus also said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." (John 6:37-39) He holds onto us.
BenK, I understand what it is that you are attempting to convey re: the issue of contraception.
It would take a whole thread and a lot of words to give this subject its proper due and respect.
There is nothing “ridiculous” or “strange” or “perverted” about the Church’s teaching on this.
I was a certified Natural Family Planning instructor for 12 years. I helped over 150 couples to understand their “combined fertility”, enabling them to use their marital love as designed by God-—not altering their natural, God-created bodies. Many couples came to me because they wanted children—not because they did not want them-—and everyone who came for instruction wanted to know as much as they could about their gift of human fertililty.
I was invited to give a presentation of NFP to the (Protestant) Bible College in my area. The dean had to give his permission for me to come, because I was Catholic and I was instructed not to make any reference to my Faith.
So I didn’t. I gave my presentation using a strictly
Scriptural basis and Scriptural passages to indicate the value of fertility awareness and the Theology of the Body.
My presentation was entitled “The Covenant of Marriage” and—praise God— was very well received by the college students. Some of them wrote me letters of thanks, and asked me to train them in NFP and I also received a very gracious letter of thanks from the professor who first invited me to come. He told me that there had been a very positive response to my coming there.
I will add, that there is no way that NFP can be legitimately called just another form of contraception.
But again, as I have already said, it would take a thread of its own to do it justice.
“Do you perceive that you could ever stop being a Christian?”
The way I see it is strength in weakness. If that makes a lick of sense. I believe that Christ is more true than anything else we can know or come across. I don’t see that changing. I mean, I’m a historian, that is my background, and I was a physicist for many years.
I look around and see so many questions. There is so little that we know about how things really work out there, that it would stun people if they really stopped to think about it.
I spend time digging through documents in the 4th, 5th century, 6th century and onwards. You can count on one hand the number of people that have come down to us from the 6th century, and we’re supposed to take that number and develop a coherent history?
Then you have Christ. The evidence is just several orders of magnitude greater.
“Is your faith so weak that something could come along to shake loose your belief in Jesus Christ?”
All our faith is weak. That’s the point. We have to be aware of that. We can’t sit down and say, gosh, nothing is going to challenge us, because that’s when we are going to be hit hard. I know. I’ve seen it and been through it. I’ve had those very dark nights when you sit up and just lose hope, that there is anything worthwhile left in the world.
So, no, I can’t go on and say, “oh yes, I’m going to be sure that I’m going to be the same faith at 40”, as I am now.
“You say you doubt yourself, so, if I hear what you are saying, it sounds like you have not been wholly convinced that you have a valid reason for trusting in Christ and believing in him. Is that really the case?”
No, not at all. It’s not so much that the reason itself is not valid, but that you lose hope that things will ever change. Like I said, I’ve had those dark nights. I don’t wish to visit them again.
“If God were to send us to Hell after he gave us His Spirit, He would be sending Himself to hell with us. That ain’t gonna happen! The presence of the Spirit within us is evidence of our salvation.”
But we can choose the other path. That is the point. We can choose to reject his gift, and he will give that what we wish - without him.
“NEVER stopped being the son of the Father.”
Yes, that is true, but the first step still had to be taken by the prodigal son. The son still had to decide to return. God did not force him to go back to his family. If the son had not turned away again, he would have suffered just as he had before.
That is the point. We have to guard ourselves against temptation, and return back to Christ. Get up and return back to him.
“God HAS already paid the penalty of all our sins.”
But we must still repent and turn away from them. We must still ask for forgiveness for the sins that we do commit, turn away from them and go on.
“When you accepted Jesus, your sins HAVE been forgiven, even the ones you have yet to commit, and He saves you by grace.”
But we must still ask for it. We must still ask for forgiveness from him for our sins.
For me, well I was 19 when I found him, and that has not changed. Like I said, I was not unhappy as an evangelical. They were very good to me.
I am happy as a Catholic too. :)
My concern is for the God-fearing folks like yourself. I know that Satan is at work and has been quite successful in destroying so many churches. We can’t go at it with each of us going in all directions.
We need to stop looking out from one trench to another and join together. I felt that when I was on the other side - very strongly, that Christ was calling me over. I feel that now, all the changes that have happened, seem like the natural progression...like it was anticipated before they came.
I also fear that something - very big, is not far away.
I also believe the something big is on the way, as I’m a futurists as to the book of Revelation.
My main concern is bringing people to to see their need for salvation, to realize their damned and destitute state, and inability to save themselves or own merit, and truly repent and trust of the Lord Jesus save them.
Which is difficult when they have much hope that God will accept them because they are pretty good, and their church church will get them into Heaven, when they never really had a day of salvation, but think that they became Christian when they were sprinkled as a baby. It did not work for Hitler, and it did not work for me.
Guys like Jerome, Augustine and Cyprian were instrumental in the development of the doctrine of Mary’s ever-virgin status
I find it rather contradictory in principal that Rome considers entering marriage with the intention of never having children to be a “grave wrong and more than likely grounds for an annulment.”[25], while praying to a women who went thru with a marriage apparently intending to do just that, according to Rome. And which is contrary to the “leave and cleave” description of marriage in Gn. 2:24 and personally confirmed by the Lord Jesus. (Mt. 19:5)
And He specified opposite genders as being what God joined, not as homosexual revisionists would have it.
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here but your post really tugs at the heartstrings.
"I believe that Christ is more true than anything else we can know or come across"
Amen.
"All our faith is weak. That’s the point. We have to be aware of that"
So true and that is why we are exhorted to do the work of God (John 6:29) so that we may become "persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (2 Tim 1:12)and further,to be "confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6)
"But we can choose the other path. That is the point. We can choose to reject his gift..."
This gift? "...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23) Who in their right mind would reject such a gift?...remembering that..."For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7)
"We have to guard ourselves against temptation..."
"But we must still repent..."
"We must still ask for forgiveness for the sins that we do commit..."
"But we must still ask for it."
"We must still ask for forgiveness from him for our sins."
All of that is true BK,I don't think anyone here would argue with what you are saying.However... "...be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..." (Romans 12:2) and..."Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Philippians 4:8)and...."For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16)
Sin no doubt makes slaves of us but I think that if we spend too much time with it rattling around in our minds,constantly fearing any slight infraction then we are still enslaved by it.This will most certainly stifle any renewing of our mind....."...then would they (the priestly sacrifices) not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year." and yet God says "...I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:34)
If we are not yet persuaded that He is able then we are still operating in unbelief and our own carnal,fleshy mind will never give us rest...and even then..."If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13) "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Hebrews 4:9-11)
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15)
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
So much of your post reeks of fear BK and it's no way for a child of God to live.
"If the Son makes you free,you shall be free indeed"
I know this post is sort of all over the place BK but I pray you will at least consider what I am trying to say in the Spirit that I am endeavoring to convey it.
I'm pinging MadDawg as I hope he will,if not agree,at least weigh in on what I'm trying to put across.I value his input.
Sin does not hurt God,nothing can hurt God,it is our problem,not His and the reason he hates it is because it Spiritually and physically enslaves and destroys that which He created in His own image and separates us from Him who is not willing that any should perish.
May God richly bless you FRiend.
Mitch, you do me undeserved honor.
Right now, on a train, I am limited to my Blackberry, a very untheological instrument.
I do think that the ways of God with the will are more mysterious than the way of a man with a maid. Even my beloved Aquinas shows signs of floundering in those depths.
Leaving, intellectually, God aside for a minute, aren’t our choices mysterious? Why do I answer this way rather than some other?
When I pulled my daughter out of the birth canal and looked into her eyes, and she into mine, before I knew if I held a daughter or a son, who loved whom first? And how many years passed before she shyly said, “I love you, Papa.”
In a way you could say we poured love into her as U-238 is stacked into a pile until the reaction is self-sustaining. In a way it is our love with which she loves us, and yet it would not be love if it were not free. So, at least in thought there is a possibility of the mad choice to abandon freedom and love.
The Prodigal decided, yet his decision was guided, driven by hunger and drawn by a hoped-for promise.
All metaphors and comparisons fail me.
But I am not so sure BK’s post was fearful. It might have been exhilarated — aware of the preposterousness of the Love of the good God for a sinner.
I thank God for you.
Aw Gawrsh, ma’am. Twarn’t nuthin’.
:-)
That’s a very kind thing to say. Gracious! Literally!
The train has WIRELESS! Wow!
Pray for me. I’m praying hard for a very dear, very wonderful person to accept, to be opened to the Love of God. She’s been sadly abused and she is, well, very special. She has so much, and what she needs is a Divine shake to get all the gifts in the right relationship to one another as well as to Him. Pray for C.A.S.
And also, I’ve been ‘cleared’ for ‘life promises’ on 1/28.
Mr. Mad Dawg, OP :-)
I will pray for her.
I’m on my way to Mass-—Feast of St. John Neuman
Assume away. You know what is said about people who assume stuff.
What a fail.... The "if you don't answer, you mean *yes*" is such a LAME argument.
Catholics pull that one on Evangelicals constantly and it's meaningless because we aren't going to play any games and let Catholics pigeonhole us.
My silence on any *gotcha* question is nothing more than refusing to be manipulated and judged.
It reveals nothing about my opinion on any question asked.
“About the contraception thingie...When my cousin’s son and girlfriend were going to pre cana - she told the priest she had no intentions of having children because her brother was born disabled and she wasn’t going to take a chance.”
Ugh. I’m disabled and it’s hereditary. If you don’t want kids, you shouldn’t be getting married. This is bad.
“So people don’t have to leave the RCC because of that.”
It’s contrary to what the church teaches. The priest should never have married them.
So you support contraception too? So far we’re 3/3 with those who left the church supporting contraception.
Just sayin’, if you’re trying to prove me wrong, all you’ve been doing is confirming my statement.
Also, the Catholic church doesn’t make a distinction between ‘contraception’ and ‘theology’.
“It’s right up there with force yourself to obey your confessor. Ugly!”
Wow. Ok. Clearly obedience ISN’T a virtue.
Arguing that the teaching is ‘an intrusion of privacy’, makes your position 100 percent crystal clear.
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