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To: boatbums

While I’m certainly not infallible and never would I have the hubris to claim otherwise, it appears that certain passages of scripture have meaning in a variety of ways, with one not contradicting another. This passage from Revelation 12 is a prime example.

A virgin with child clearly references the birth of Jesus Christ and his mother, Mary. Regardless of the peculiar beliefs that have been spun off of this by the Catholic Church, it is undeniable in my opinion. However, it is also Israel. That is easily deduced and fairly straightforward, unless of course one presumes one’s own church to have supplanted Israel, which has led to all sorts of ugliness, and will again.

But, it is also a sign, a literal sign. Old Testament and Jewish prophecy is replete with such things. It’s what had the Magi trekking a very long distance to find the king of the Jews. This sign heralds His return in the same way. Note, however, that this is the earthly king ruling with a rod of iron, the expectation of the Jews, borne of prophecy, that led to their rejection of Him in the first instance.

Second occurences that address the first are not foreign to the Bible. The first Adam who sinned, the second Adam, Jesus Christ, who was victorious over death and sin.

So, it’s Mary with child. It’s Israel. It’s a sign that heralds His return. It fulfills Jewish prophecy completely. There is no reason it cannot be all these things, and I believe that it is all these things.

You do point out an obvious and interesting difficulty for those who have intellectualized the virgin birth and the sinlessness of Jesus Christ into believing that this necessitates a sinless Mary. She cried out in pain, a consequence of sin.


273 posted on 12/29/2011 7:35:30 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry; boatbums; CynicalBear; RnMomof7; metmom; presently no screen name; ...
A virgin with child clearly references the birth of Jesus Christ and his mother, Mary.

I disagree. I just read Rev 12 again (NKJV) and the reference is always the woman, which is usually representative of Israel. Also, if this chapter in Revelation is referencing May why didn't John say so? John knew her better than anyone, he was given the responsibility of looking after her.

The misinterpretation that the woman is Mary is probably because of her elevation in status outside of Scripture. I think while we should always respect Mary and her role in Jesus Christ coming to be with us we should temper that respect with the recognition that she had no role in his ministry on Earth. Mary was only in close proximity to Jesus on a few occasions after Jesus began his ministry. Mary was at the wedding in Cana. Mary came with Jesus' brothers to take him home and at the Cross. Mary was not among those who ministered to Jesus during His ministry and she is not mentioned at any of His appearances before or after the ascension.

The status of Mary is way overblown. His human spirit was given to Him by God the Father and His divine Spirit has always existed with the Father. God the Father raised Him from the dead and gave him His glorified body. What Mary gave Jesus died in the grave. So the interpretation that Mary has a role in the Tribulation is inconsistent with Scripture.

RC I pinged a few others that might be able to add to the discussion.

285 posted on 12/29/2011 8:58:35 AM PST by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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