Replies

1) Man was given dominion over the earth and authority to make laws. There is no scriptural law that we must drink alcohol, so a human law prohibiting alcohol is not contrary to God's law or scripture. So your whole argument about heresy and false teachings are completely irrelevant.

If there is no Biblical prohibition there is Christian liberty, the New Testament is quite clear on this. It actually warns against making up additional laws which go beyond what are provided in the Word of God and then presenting them as Biblically required. For instance, a specific prohibition of eating meat, or perhaps wearing the color blue, would be imposing a law made up by man over and above what is commanded of Christians in the Bible and it would be falsely declaring illegal that which is provided in the New Testament as within the liberty afforded to believers by God.

2) Your third paragraph makes it sound like you believe you can lose your salvation. That's not the case. You can cause God to chastise you, but once you claim that promise, your salvation depends on God and God alone. By Grace are ye saved and not by works. That's why Paul is able to save "Neither life nor death nor...etc...can separate us from the Love of God." Paul is not worried about screwing up.

Salvation can not be lost, but we know that a profession of faith in and of itself does not save; just saying the words does not save. If that were the case, any evil man could save himself by uttering some words, God forbid, and then go on murdering and plundering. This is utter nonsense, of course. A profession of faith is the first step that a person takes, but it is not I that saves myself. If I am saved, it is by the Grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus; this implies a true faith, of course. A careful reading of Paul's epistles to the churches reveals that he is warning them and chastising them in various cases. Why would he do that if he was not worried about them "screwing up" ? The answer is clearly given in the New Testament: one can see the fruit of the Spirit in those that are saved; where people go astray they need to come back to the straight and narrow path. All is preordained by God, creator of heaven and earth, the author of history; man, not knowing the mind of God, saved according to God's sovereign pleasure, is nonetheless exhorted to be obedient to God's law. Paul, servant of the Lord, was publishing the Word of God to those who would listen.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Many who profess faith, inside, in their heart, have grave and fundamentally mistaken ideas about the Word of God and are erroneously thinking they are saved when they are not (just watch TV to see examples of this), and many in their heart are aware they are not saved, because they know they do not understand and have doubts, but they continue living a lie and not seeking out the truth. But there are also many who are saved, truly. And the New Testament tells us that they will have doubts, and trials. The differences is that those who are saved will persevere until the end. How is man to know which is which ? God knows, and those who are saved are told in the Bible to take comfort and know that they are saved, and also that they will - if they indeed are saved - continually try to be closer to God and to understand and obey his Holy Word.

3) Although the liberal Hollywood and media have chosen to focus on the rise in organized crime, the truth is that many wonderful things also happened during the prohibition era. Church attendance per capita reached an all time high. Hospital admissions dropped by over half. Mental Hospital admissions dropped by over 3/4's. The period was known as "the roaring 20's", a phenomenal economic explosion took place. You're only getting half the story on the prohibition era, you should educate yourself sometime.

The roaring part of the 1920's resulted mostly from the country reaching a new plateau in manufacturing technology and business models which was bound to happen even if prohibition had not. Prosperity resulting from the new technology was helped along much more so than today because of a legal and regulatory environment for manufacturing and business in general that was so less burdensome than today. The thousands-year-old custom of alcoholic drinks continued unabated. As with the recent prosperity decade of the 1990's, with many who were poor being economically uplifted, many societal problems lessened and many others got worse. Of course, all is preordained by God, but the lesson for Christians from prohibition is the age-old one that man can't create righteousness in other men by imposing his own laws that force moderation in behavior by restricting Christian liberty. The Holy Spirit effects in the hearts of believers a desire for moderation and a disdain for gluttony that the unbelieving heart can not be coerced into by other men. Jesus says in John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."; believers will want to follow Jesus' commandments.

4) Your argument that "the only way sinful behavior is constrained is when a person is born again" is clearly false. We have many laws that are quite effective at restraining sinful behavior. Example: Laws against polygamy have practically ended the practice. Laws against murder or theft restrain many people but not all people. You seem to be confusing a person's sinful state with sinful behavior. Behavior can certain be constrained and deterred by human laws. A person's sinful state before God is only dealt with by being forgiven but specific behaviors can certainly be deterred by man's laws.

My bad, I agree with what you are saying, given how my statement was worded. Yes, the civil law restrains evil. My intent was to refer to the point of view regarding any given individual.

IMHO...

From the individual's point of view, if they are not saved, they do not have the same internal feelings about breaking laws; they are not operating with the fear of the Lord in them. Of course, evil people operate with disregard of the civil law other than it giving them pause out of fear of punishment; it does not change their hearts. Many people who are unbelievers but not outwardly viewed as evil by others in society, i.e., "nice" people, will still have it in their heart to think, speak and act in ways that are not good Biblically or in a secular sense; we Christians know that this is because man is born into sin. Drunkenness for example; true believers know that this is wrong, but to unbelievers in our secular humanist society today, this is simple "fun" and there is nothing wrong with it in their minds. The fact that it is illegal in, say, a college town, for people to drink under the age of 21 - does nothing to change the hearts and minds of unbelievers who want to have "college fun" and get drunk every weekend. But to the true believer, who has been drawn by the Holy Spirit to knowledge of God's Word and has been taught by those ordained, in their heart they find no joy in such drunkenness; instead it troubles them. They prefer joys which do not conflict with the Bible.

"It" (Scripture) "actually warns against making up additional laws which go beyond what are provided in the Word of God and then presenting them as Biblically required."

If by "Biblically required", you mean "required for salvation", then I agree with you. Scripture does warn against adding to the salvation message.

However, there is a big difference between community law, church rules and adding to the salvation message.

When the U.S. voted in prohibiton they were within their rights as a country. The law didn't violate scripture. Nothing in the law made it even appear to be a requirement for salvation.

When a group of believers decide that they want to enter into a covenant to abstain from alcohol, they are also within their rights as long as they don't make such a requirement a condition of salvation. Admittedly, that can become problematic. If you lead a person to Christ who drinks and who intends to continue drinking, then you have to refer them to another church.

My grandfather was a severe alcoholic when he accepted Jesus. And for nine months after accepting Jesus, he continued to hang out with the same friends and continued to get drunk. Eventually the Spirit convinced him to change friends and behaviors. Unfortunately, I have no clue how the church handled that in the meantime. I'm pretty sure he accepted Jesus in a Baptist church that probably had a no drinking covenant. My guess is that the church didn't make an issue of it and probably prayed for him.

Churches aren't wrong to set standards of behavior. Even Paul wrote instructions for hair styles and clothing, but he never made salvation dependent on it.

Churches are a lot like people. They each have a different personality. They attract different people. As long as they're primary focus is the gospel they are okay.