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Calvinism's Similarities to Islam
http://www.freewill-predestination.com/islam.html ^ | David Bennett

Posted on 12/12/2011 5:00:12 PM PST by rzman21

David Bennett Click here for pdf version of this paper Muslim-Calvinism similarities

Keep in mind when reading this section that I realize there is a danger in cherry picking certain quotes from the Qur’an and John Calvin and drawing a comparison. I could have picked quotes about love and peace from both just as well. The comparison is meant to be read in context with what I have already written in The Golden Rule, John Calvin: The Unchanged, and Radical vs. Magisterial Reformation. The point here is to examine the written words and more importantly the actual deeds of Muhammad and John Calvin and examine how they dealt with their adversaries and dissenters. "To what point?" you ask. For one thing, to show that while we are quick to condemn one, we tend to gloss over or dismiss the other. For another, to demonstrate that by their written words and their deeds that these were power hungry men who used brutal means to grow and maintain that power. In the case of John Calvin, the comparison is just one of many examples of why we should not base doctrine on his teachings. As the saying goes, "actions speak louder than words." John Calvin did not spread the Gospel in the manner that Jesus and His disciples taught. If a person's salvation is predestined then the extreme methods by both John Calvin and Muhammad were unnecessary, God certainly did not need their help. John Calvin's methods were akin to Muhammed's, by fear and intimidation, "by the sword," and this is why looking at Islam and Calvinism is indeed a fair comparison.

Norman Geisler, Answering Islam: The Crescent in Light of the Cross 2nd Edition is an excellent book. The first third gives an explanation of the fundamental beliefs of Islam, from a Muslim point if view. In the second third takes the authors respond to basic Muslim beliefs of God, Muhammad and the Qur'an. The last third examines the evidence for the Christian counterclaim.

Beyond gaining a better understanding of Islam it is astounding to me how many of the verses from the Qur’an and how many of arguments Muslim theologians and commentaries use sound identical to those used by Calvinists to rationalize the doctrine of predestination. My guess is that if you removed the flowery language and substituted certain words such as Allah in many of the quotes from the Qur’an or Muslim commentaries with the word God that the statements would be indistinguishable from statements on doctrine from not just the Reformers of John Calvin’s day but also indistinguishable from those in modern Reformed Theology like John Piper, R.C. Sproul and others.

Following are a few excerpts from the book. Page numbers denote where in the book the quote is found. The quotes in brackets and in blue were added by me to compare similar Islamic ideas with those from Calvinism/Reformed Theology and/or commentary by me.

p. 28 “So God is the One Who leads astray, as well as the One Who guides. He is the One Who brings damage, as also does Satan. He is described also by terms like the Bringer-down, the Compeller, or Tyrant, the Haughty—all of which, when used of men, have an evil sense. In the Unity of the single will, however, these descriptions co-exist with those that relate to mercy, compassion, and glory.” -- Kenneth Cragg, The Call of the Minaret (New York: Oxford University press, 1964), 41-42

[“Now since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God…He arranges… that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction…” John Calvin III:xxiii, 4]

["I believe that nothing happens apart from divine determination and decree. We shall never be able to escape from the doctrine of divine predestination - the doctrine that God has foreordained certain people unto eternal life". Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892)]

p. 30 Orthodox Islam teaches the absolute predestination of both good and evil, that all our thoughts, words and deeds, whether good or evil, were foreseen, foreordained, determined and decreed from all eternity, and that everything that happens takes place according to what has been written for it. There was much discussion among early Muslim theologians as to free will and predestination, but the free-will parties (al-qadariyya) were ultimately defeated. – Arthur Jeffrey, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion, 1958. 147-48

[“…by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to eternal destruction.” John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi,7.]

[“But if all whom the Lord predestined to death are naturally liable to sentence of death, of what injustice, pray, do they complain…because by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to perpetual destruction… what will they be able to mutter against their defense?” John Calvin III:xxiii,3]

Say, Nothing will ever befall us save what Allah has written for us. (Qur’an 9:51)

["Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret councils of God." Lorraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination p. 234]

[All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history—whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones-- come to pass because God ordained them, Even sin- the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history.” Edwin Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, 1999]

["God fore-ordains everything which comes to pass....God initiates all things, regulates all things...." Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Baker Book House, 1984), 240]

He whom Allah guides is he who is rightly guided, but whom he leads astray, those are the losers… They have hearts with which they do not comprehend, they have eyes with which they do not see, they have ears with which they do not hear… (Qur’an:178-79)

[“…by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to eternal destruction” John Calvin III:xxi,7]

["It is even biblical to say that God has foreordained sin.” Edwin Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism]

[“…God desired for man to fall into sin… God created sin...” R.C. Sproul, Jr., Almighty Over All, 1999]

p. 31 From the hadith (Islamic tradition) Muhammad was asked the question, “Abu Bakr asserts that Allah decrees good but does not decree evil, but Umar says that He decrees both alike.”

Muhammad replied: “The decree necessarily determines all that is good and all that is sweet and all that is bitter, and that is my decision between you.” Then he slapped Abu Bakr on the shoulder, and said: O Abu Bakr, if Allah Most High had not willed that there would be disobedience, He would not have created the devil.” --Arthur Jeffrey, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (New York: Bobbs- Merrill Company, Inc. 1958, 149-50

“He willeth also the unbelief of the unbeliever and the irreligion of the wicked and, without that there would be neither unbelief nor irreligion. All we do we do by His will: what He willeth not does not come to pass. If one should ask why God does not will that all men should believe, we answer, :We have no right to enquire about what God wills or does. He is perfectly free to will and do what He pleases.” Al-Ghazali, one of the most respected Muslim Theologians of all times according to Geisler. Source: Abdiyah Akbar Abdul- Haqq, Sharing your Faith with a Muslim (Minneapolis: Bethany Fellowship Inc., 1980), 152

[“Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children…” John Calvin III:xxiii,1]

p. 140

On VOLUNTARISM Geisler writes: "…Furthermore, there is a serious moral problem with Islamic voluntarism, For if God is Will, without any real essence, then he does not do things because they are right; rather because he does them. In short, God is arbitrary about what is right and wrong. He does not have to do good. For example, God does not have to be merciful; he could be mean if he wanted to be. He does not have to be loving to all; he could hate, if he chose to do so. Indeed in the very next verse after it says “God will love you…God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (3:31), we read that God loveth not those Who reject Faith” (v. 32). Further, Allah said in 25:51, “Had it been Our Will, We could have sent A warner to every centre Of Population.” But he did not, which smacks of arbitrariness. * In other words, love and mercy are not of the essence of God."

"* Compare by contrast the God of the Bible who loves all (John 3:16), convicts all of sin (John 16:7), and desires all be saved (2 Pet. 3: 9), giving them all necessary light (Rom. 1:19-20; 2:12-15) and accepting any who come to him (Acts 10:35; Heb. 11:6)."

[Calvin said, “…God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as He will, whether to good for His mercy's sake or to evil according to their merits... Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God.” ]

[This is the very same logic I continually hear from Calvinists when they attempt to explain or justify that God causes certain people to sin, or reject Him altogether. They will tell you “if God causes (wills) it, it is not good or bad by definition, it is His good pleasure to do what He pleases.” When a Calvinist pastor friend used this same line of reasoning I replied, “In that case you would jump up and down for joy if a Satan worshipper, raped, tortured, mutilated, and then slowly killed your teenage daughter, right?” He claimed I was being ridiculous and over dramatic to which I replied, “But these things do happen in real life. So which is it? Would you be joyful over what was predestined to happened?” No answer.]

p. 146 EXTREME DETERMINISM

…orthodox Islam teaches the absolute predestination of both good and evil, that all of our thoughts, words, and deeds, whether deeds, whether good or evil, were foreseen, foreordained, determined and decreed from all eternity, and that everything that happens takes place according to what has been written for it, This is because God “is the Irresistible” (Qur’an 6:18).

“Nature, whether animate or inanimate, is subject to His command and all that comes into existence—a summer flower or a murderer’s deed, a newborn child or a sinner’s disbelief – is from Him and of Him.” In fact, if “God so willed, there need have been no creation, there need have been no idolatry, there need have been no Hell, there need have been no escape from Hell.” – Kenneth Cragg, The Call of the Minaret, 44-45

“there is no doubt that the Qur’an does make frequent statements to the effect that God leads aright whom He will and leads astray whom He will, or that God has ‘sealed up’ some people’s heart to truth, etc.” –Fazlur Rahman, Major Themes of the Qur’an, 1980. 15

[God “saves whom he wills of his mere good pleasure” John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin III:xxi, 1.]

p. 147 THE MORAL PROBLEM WITH ISLAMIC DETERMINISM Geisler wrote, "While many Muslims wish to preserve human responsibility, they can only succeed in doing so by modifying what the Qur’an actually says. Consider the very words of the Qur’an: “Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us Except what God has decreed for us” (9:51); “Whom God doth guide, -- He is on the right path: Whom He rejects from His guidance, -- Such are the persons who perish.” (7:178-179)…"

["God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation". John Calvin (1509-1564)]

"What is more, the Qur’an frankly admits that God could have saved all, but did not desire to do so! “If We had so willed, We could have certainly have brought Every soul its true guidance: But the Word from Me Will come true, ‘I will fill Hell with jinn And men all together’” (32:13). It is extremely difficult to understand how, holding such a view, one can consistently maintain any kind of human responsibility." Al-Ghazali, Muslim Theologian. Cited by Abdul-Hagg, 152, from Hughe's Dictionary of Islam, 147

p. 148 “He [God] willeth also the unbelief of the unbeliever and the irreligion of the wicked and, without that will, there would be neither unbelief nor irreligion. All we do is by His Will: what He willeth nor does not come to pass…. We have no right to enquire about what God wills or does. He is perfectly free to will and do what He pleases.”

[If you’ve ever had a discussion with a Calvinist this sounds familiar, doesn’t it?]

p. 149 “Not only can he (God) do anything, He is actually the only One Who does anything. When a man writes, it is Allah who has created in his mind the will to write. Allah at the same time gives power to write, then brings about the motion of the hand and the pen and the appearance on the paper. All other things are passive, Allah alone is active.” – Gerhard Nehls, Christians Ask Muslims, 1987. 21

["No, he has foreordained everything 'after the counsel of his will': the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist -- even sin." Calvinist Edwin Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinist]

Muslim creedal statements: • God Most High is the Creator of all actions of His creatures whether of unbelief or belief, of obedience or of rebellion: all of them are by the Will of God and His sentence and His conclusion and His decreeing. Cragg, The Call of the Minaret 60-61

• God’s one possible quality is His power to create good or evil at any time He wishes, i.e. His decree… Both good things and evil things are the results of God’s decree. It is the duty of every Muslim to believe this… It is he who causes harm and good. Rather the good works of some and the evil of others are signs that God wishes to punish some and to reward others… if God wishes to draw someone close to Himself, then He will give him the grace which will make that person do good works. If He wishes to reject someone and put that person to shame then He will create sin in him. God creates all things, good and evil. God creates people as well as their actions: He created you as well as what you do. (Qur’an 37:94)

A few quotes from the Qur'an that could have very well come from Reformed Theology:

Qur'an 3:145 No person can ever die except by the permission of Allah, the term being fixed as by writing.

Qur'an 48:14 To Allah belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth: He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He pleases.

Qur'an 64:11 No calamity occurs, no affliction comes, except by the decision and preordainment of Allah.

Surah 16:53 And whatever favor is (bestowed) on you it is from Allah; then when evil afflicts you, to Him do you cry for aid.

Surah 57:22-23 No evil befalls on the earth nor in your own souls, but it is in a book before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to Allah: So that you may not grieve for what has escaped you, nor be exultant at what He has given you; and Allah does not love any arrogant boaster

Bukhari:V6B60N473 Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in the Hell Fire. His happy or miserable fate is predetermined for him.

Bukhari:V6B60N473 While we were in a funeral procession, Allah's Apostle said, 'Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in Hell. They have a happy or miserable fate predestined for them.' A man said, 'Apostle! Shall we depend upon what is written and give up doing deeds? For whoever is destined to be fortunate, will join the fortunate and whoever is destined to be miserable will go to Hell.'

Bukhari:V7B71N665 The Prophet said, 'No contagious disease is conveyed without Allah's permission.'

Ishaq:395 No soul can die but by Allah's permission in a term that is written.

Tabari I:202 There are people who consider predestination untrue. Then they consider the Qur'an untrue.... People merely carry out what is a foregone conclusion, decided by predestination and written down by the Pen.

Tabari I:306 The Messenger said, "Allah created Adam and then rubbed Adam's back with his right hand and brought forth his progeny. Then He said, 'I have created these as the inhabitants of Paradise.' Then he rubbed his back with His left hand and said, 'I have created those for the Fire, and they will act as the inhabitants of the Fire.' A man asked, 'O Messenger, how is that?' Muhammad replied, 'When Allah creates a human being for Paradise, He employs him to act as the inhabitants of Paradise, and he will enter Paradise. And when Allah creates a human being for the Fire, He will employ him to act as the inhabitants of the Fire, and will thus make him enter the Fire.'

Source: www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Predestination.Islam ___________________

Exceptions in the Qur’an gave Muhammad exemptions to sin and do things the Qur’an says everyone else ought not to do:

• Muhammad broke promises and ‘even got a “revelation” to break a long-standing pledge to avoid killing during a sacred month…” (1) • Muhammad also had a special “revelation” giving him permission to have more than four wives, he had fifteen. (2)

Regarding the many examples of Mohammad not being a good moral example pointed out by Geisler & Saleeb (1) Islamic apologist Muhammad Haykal states that even if “their claim were true, we would still refute them with the simple argument that the great stand above the law.” (3)

The great stand above the law… That is clearly not something taught in the Jewish and Christian scriptures. If we expect one standard for everyone else, including Muhammad, then why do we allow, accept or ignore actions of men like Augustine, John Calvin, John Knox and Martin Luther to name a few who claimed to be Christians, and claimed to be “reforming” Christianity, when in reality they not only introduced various doctrine and traditions that are not scriptural but also did things that Jesus specifically taught that a true follower would not do. These failures if nothing else should prohibit pastors from using them as authoritative in regard to Biblical exegesis. Just because a broken clock is right twice a day doesn’t mean one should buy it and take it home to set other clocks by.

Augustine, Calvin, and Reformed Theology bring no new revelation or clarification of the Scripture that one cannot get by reading the Bible on your own. Because of this I am always perplexed that good preachers put so much stock in the writings of Augustine and ‘reformers” such as Calvin. What happened to Sola scriptura…? Why do we need Augustine and Calvin to explain things to us?

John Calvin said, "God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as He will, whether to good for His mercy's sake or to evil according to their merits... Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God." (4) So like Islam teaches, John Calvin is stating there really is no good or evil, just what ever God wills, which by definition has to be good.

We often hear in Muslim countries of "criminals" being decapitated or having a hand chopped off as punishment. Apparently these reprehensible methods were in vogue in John Calvin's Geneva. Two examples:

On March 7, 1545 two women were burned at the stake presumably for the crime of sorcery/spreading the plague. Calvin interceded apparently only to have them executed sooner rather than later. The Council followed his directive happily and urged the executioner to "be more diligent in cutting off the hands of malefactors." (5)

On June 3, 1555 Perrin is condemned to have the hand of his right arm cut off (the hand with which he grabbed the baton after the civil election.) He and his accomplices were condemned to decapitation, then the heads and Perrin's hand were to be nailed up in public and their bodies cut into four quarters. The brothers Comparet received the sentence of decapitation and their bodies are to be quartered. All who didn't flee were executed. Calvin justified the severity of their sentences. (6)

One has to wonder if someone has read the words of Jesus and accepted Him as Lord and Savior would that person go around advocating the chopping off of limbs for any reason?

The following is from an article from WorldnetDaily.com:

Crucifixion OK with Mideast politicos Islamic radicals also endorse cutting off hands, whippings December 30, 2008

The political arm of a radical Islamic group has approved a new law that allows traitors to their government to be crucified, thieves' hands to be chopped off and someone guilty of drinking alcohol to be whipped.

According to a report in the Jewish World Review, Hamas, which was elected to government power in Gaza, over Christmas week adopted penalties included in the Shariah criminal code for the Palestinian Authority.

The report said Hamas endorsed "nailing enemies of Islam to crosses" even as it was renewing its jihad by lobbing missiles at day care centers, schools and travelers in line "to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas."

According to the online military news resource Strategypage, Hamas "believes it is better to be feared than loved" so it instituted the new laws. (7)

The idea from the above article that “it is better to be feared than loved” seems to also be in line historically with how John Calvin viewed Christianity and how he ruled Geneva. It's interesting that we correctly criticize Muslims (the term “radical” in the article is debatable) today for such abhorrent behavior and tactics. It is a shame that all that the Reformed Theology camp can do when similar actions are pointed out in John Calvin’s Geneva, and which spread to John Knox’s Scotland, is to largely ignore it, or when rarely acknowledged, make excuses and not even admit he and his cohorts had missed the mark by a long shot.

1. Norman Geisler & Abdul Saleeb, Answering Islam: The Crescent and the Cross, Second Edition. Page 180. 2. Qur’an 33:50 3. Haykal, Muhammad Husayn, The Life of Muhammad. Indianapolis; North American Trust Publication, 1976. Page 298. 4. Martin Luther and John Calvin on Sacramental Salvation. http://www.asapnet.net/remnant/page14issacrament. htm 5. Bernard Cottret, Calvin: A Biography, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, copyright 2000. Page 180. 6. Cottret, Calvin: A Biography, page 198. 7. WorldnetDaily, Crucifixion OK with Mideast politicos http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=84964 _______________________________________________________


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To: SoothingDave

When Revelation is wrapped up you’ll get a fuller understanding of God ~ remember, all the message has not yet been given ~ see John of Patmos eh!


81 posted on 12/12/2011 7:13:38 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: HossB86

Why are you highlighting something out of context to make a point to the ignorant?


82 posted on 12/12/2011 7:14:38 PM PST by narses
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To: Winstons Julia

Indeed. Religion can be such a touchy subject. Oy.


83 posted on 12/12/2011 7:16:12 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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To: ckilmer

Strict Calvinism historically has not lasted long. Puritan Massachusetts inevitably gave way to Unitarianism as the people rejected Calvin’s rigidity.

The similarities between rigid orthodox Calvinism and Islam today can be found in the writings of people like Rousas Rushdoony’s Institutes of Biblical Law and in the Christian Reconstructionist movement.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/05/r-j-rushdoony-reconstructionist-and-racist-bigot/

The parallel between Islam and 16th and 17th century Calvinism can be found a)in their rejection of the role of human reason in faith and revelation b) in their understanding of God’s sovereignty c)in the rigid application of Old Testament law.

Islam knew a period in the early Middle Ages between the roughly 8th and 10th centuries when a group known as the Mutazila promoted an Islamic theology that accepted the role of human reason in faith.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu’tazila

But they were overpowered by Asharites who said that human reason had no place in theology just like the Calvinists did in their rejection of the Catholic Church.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/History_of_Islam/The_Mutazilites-Asharites_debate

The irony here is that St. Thomas Aquinas and the scholastics were influenced by the Mu’tazila when they brought Aristotle’s thought into Western Christianity.

The Asharites, who were the predecessors of modern Islam, held a similar view of God’s sovereignty to that of John Calvin to the point of saying that if someone was killed. It was God who killed them.

Scholars have also noted strong similarities between John Calvin and Muhammad ibn-Wahhab due to their strict puritannical ethic.
http://books.google.com/books?id=EEEFsVYLko4C&pg=PA98&dq=wahhab+calvin&hl=en&ei=tbvmTs_bIMrf0QG3msH7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wahhab%20calvin&f=false

Calvin and his followers destroyed Catholic temples and the relics of saints. Wahhab and his followers did much the same. And both were theocrats.
http://books.google.com/books?id=WfGSzKDvh8IC&pg=PA119&dq=wahhab+calvin&hl=en&ei=tbvmTs_bIMrf0QG3msH7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=wahhab%20calvin&f=false


84 posted on 12/12/2011 7:21:37 PM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21
None of which means anything.

Moslems would have done all that just for the sheer joy of destroying things. Remember, they even have some guidelines for what to do with the wives and chillun' of their conquered enemies.

Those rules demonstrate that Islam is not a civilized system of belief.

85 posted on 12/12/2011 7:31:15 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: rzman21
I have Catholics in my family and among my friends would never post such an article about their faith and Islam.

Nor would I imply in other posts on this thread that I knew the true God and other Christians did not. Starting this type of infighting (and during Advent) reeks ... like smoke coming from the darkest regions.

It might interest you to know that Calvinists in large part formed this country along with its reasonable Constitution.

Calvinists in the American Revolution

86 posted on 12/12/2011 7:35:08 PM PST by 22cal (Forgiven, not perfected)
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To: muawiyah

Once upon a time, neither was Calvinism.


87 posted on 12/12/2011 7:37:13 PM PST by rzman21
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To: aruanan; rzman21
his fatalistic/deterministic view of God

Only I would use the little "g" god.

It is a regression: back to "the fates". At the mercy of a capricious god tossing dice to see who suffers eternally and who does not.

It's as if both Judaism and Christianity never happened.

88 posted on 12/12/2011 7:38:10 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: 22cal

Calvinism had largely degenerated into Unitarianism among the Founders by the time of the Revolution.


89 posted on 12/12/2011 7:38:26 PM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21

FWIW, Oswald Spengler compares the historical roles of Mohammed and Cromwell, the Calvinist Lord Protector.

Intriguing. ;^)


90 posted on 12/12/2011 7:41:46 PM PST by headsonpikes (Mass murder and cannibalism are the twin sacraments of socialism - "Who-whom?"-Lenin)
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To: HossB86

Hoss, what is the title for the section of the Catechism you posted?

How about posting the whole section?

Then perhaps look at what the section you posted actually says.

I think that would make an honest post out it.


91 posted on 12/12/2011 7:42:12 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: rzman21
That was back in the day.

Ever hear of Bloody Queen Mary? Now there was an ol'gal who had the skies lit up with people she thought to be heretics.

No one was nice then.

Imagine if you'd had a couple of Jains visit Europe to teach the concept of Ahemsa!

92 posted on 12/12/2011 7:47:29 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: narses
Why are you highlighting something out of context to make a point to the ignorant?

I'm happy you and your group here have FINALLY admitted your situation!

I posted from a website. You want to post goodies? Go ahead. I'd still like to hear your answer though -- regardless, the passage says Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.... Muslims don't worship God.

And there is your conundrum.

Hoss

93 posted on 12/12/2011 7:48:04 PM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: headsonpikes

Calvin was perhaps the biggest enemy Jesus ever had because his thinking drove millions away from Christ.

Secularism is an offspring of Calvinism. The Enlightenment thinkers were mostly Calvinistic on origin or had some ties to it.


94 posted on 12/12/2011 7:49:48 PM PST by rzman21
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To: HossB86

Why are you highlighting something out of context to make a point to the ignorant?


95 posted on 12/12/2011 7:50:31 PM PST by narses
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To: muawiyah
Not "Bloody Mary". The Protestants had their own cruel body count of Catholics.


96 posted on 12/12/2011 7:53:05 PM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21
Yes, Bloody Mary. She was very real. Not sure Philippe I/II was really happy with her (if you know what I mean). That was her husband.

Later on his son put an end to the nonsense with the Catholic/Protestant battling by dividing North America up and actually making room for a Protestant settlement area.

Even Philippe, in his life, was more than tolerant when it came to Protestants supporting the Catholic League in its battle against the Ottoman Empire and it's Navy.

My point was that people were cruel back in the day ~ but not as bad as we are. They didn't, for example, make the slaughter of the innocent unborn a primary policy of state. Frankly, today's wholesale slaughter of human flesh would have HORRIFIED even the Bloody Mary's and her counterparts everywhere ~ even the Moslems would have been distressed.

97 posted on 12/12/2011 8:05:53 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: rzman21
Naw, the biggest enemy Jesus ever had was the guy who devised arguments to lead the faithful into performing/and/or having abortions.

Those numbers are huge.

All the other bad guys are pikers compared to that.

98 posted on 12/12/2011 8:08:37 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Nice red herring!


99 posted on 12/12/2011 8:11:05 PM PST by rzman21
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To: muawiyah
EDMUND CAMPION—1540-1581 Todd M. Aglialoro Shortly after dawn on July 18, 1581, the cry went out: "I have found the traitors!" With a crowbar the false wall at the head of the stairs was torn away, revealing the huddled figures of Edmund Campion and two companions, three priests lately returned to their native England to minister to those resisting the oppression from the new English Church. Their discovery set them upon the path to martyrdom. Edmund Campion was born on January 25, 1540 into an England of religious and social upheaval. Protestantism had usurped the Catholic Church as the spiritual authority; the dissolution of monasteries and the suppression of Catholic beliefs and believers intensified as land-hungry nobles and men of power continued, in the name of the young, sickly Edward VI, the transformation begun by Henry VIII. Campion was 13 and the most promising scholar at Christ's Hospital school in London when he was chosen to read an address to Mary Tudor upon her arrival in London as queen in 1553. Campion received a scholarship to Oxford at age 15, and, by the time Elizabeth rose to power ("restoring" Protestantism as the national religion) upon Mary's death in 1558, he was already a junior fellow. At Oxford Campion's erudition, charisma, and charm gained him noteriety; his students even imitated his mannerisms and style of dress. Queen Elizabeth visited in 1566 and for her entertainment was treated to academic displays. Campion, the star of the show, single-handedly debated four other scholars and so impressed the queen that she promised the patronage of her advisor (and one of the principal architects of the Reformation in England) William Cecil, who referred to Campion as the "diamond of England." It was the hope of the crown that Campion would become a defender of the new faith which, though favored by the temporal power, lacked learned apologists. Yet even as he was ordained to the Anglican diaconate, he was being swayed toward Rome, influenced in great part by older friends with Catholic sympathies. In 1569 he journeyed to Dublin, where he composed his . At this point Campion was at the summit of his powers. He could have risen to the highest levels of fame had he stayed his course. But this was not to be. By the time Campion left Ireland, he knew he could not remain a Protestant. Campion's Catholic leanings were well-publicized, and he found the atmosphere hostile upon his return to England in 1571. He went abroad to Douay in France, where he was reconciled with the Church and decided to enter the Society of Jesus. He made a pilgrimmage to Rome and journeyed to Prague, where he lived and taught for six years and in 1578 was ordained a Jesuit priest. In 1580 he was called by superiors to join fellow Jesuit Robert Parsons in leading a mission to England. He accepted the assignment joyfully, but everyone was aware of the dangers. The night before his departure from Prague, one of the Jesuit fathers wrote over Campion's door, "" Campion crossed the English Channel as "Mr. Edmunds," a jewel dealer. His mission was nearly a short one: At Dover a search was underway for Gabriel Allen, another English Catholic expatriate who was rumored to be returning to England to visit family. Apparently Allen's description fit Campion also, and he was detained by the mayor of Dover, who planned to send Campion to London. Inexplicably, while waiting for horses for the journey, the mayor changed his mind, and sent "Mr. Edmunds" on his way. Upon reaching London, Campion composed his "Challenge to the Privy Council," a statement of his mission and an invitation to engage in theological debate (see "Classic Apologetics" in this issue). Copies spread quickly, and several replies to the "Challenge" were published by Protestant writers, who attached to it a derogatory title, "Campion's Brag," by which it is best known today. The power and sincerity of the "Brag" is accompanied by a degree of naivete: Campion's statement of purpose was of no value during his later trial for treason, and the challenge to debate, repeated later in his apologetic work , was as much an invitation to capture. And his capture seemed almost inevitable: Elizabeth had spies everywhere searching for priests, the most sought after of whom being her former "diamond of England." Campion and his companions traveled stealthily through the English countryside in the early summer of 1581, relying on old, landed Catholic families as hosts. They said Mass, heard confession, performed baptisms and marriages, and preached words of encouragement to a people who represented the last generation to confess the faith of a Catholic England. There were close calls. Many homes had hiding places for priests—some even had secret chapels and confessionals—and the Jesuits had to rely on these more than once. Campion took extraordinary risks, never able to turn down a request to preach or administer the sacraments, and more than once he escaped detection while in a public setting. His fortune changed while visiting the home of Francis Yate in Lyford Grange, which was west of London. Yate was a Catholic imprisoned for his faith who had repeatedly asked for one of the Jesuit fathers to tend to the spiritual needs of his household. Though it was out of the way and the queen's searchers were reportedly in hot pursuit, Campion was unable to resist the request. He traveled to Lyford, heard confessions, preached well into the night, and departed without difficulty after saying Mass at dawn. Some nuns visiting the home shortly thereafter were upset to hear they had just missed Campion, and so riders were dispatched to pursuade him to return, which he did. Word of his return reached George Eliot, born and regarded as Catholic but in fact a turncoat in the pay of the queen; he had a general commission to hunt down and arrest priests. Eliot arrived at Lyford with David Jenkins, another searcher, and attended a Mass. He was greatly outnumbered by the Catholics, and, fearing resistance, made no move to arrest Campion. He departed abruptly to fetch the local magistrate and a small militia and returned to the Yate property during dinner. News of the approaching party reached the house, and Campion and his two priestly companions were safely squirreled away in a narrow cell prepared especially for that purpose, with food and drink for three days. Later Eliot and Jenkins both claimed to have discovered the priests, offering the same story: A strip of light breaking through a gap in the wall leading to the hiding place was the giveaway—both men took credit for noticing it, and each reported being the one to break through the wall. No doubt each sought the credit for capturing the infamous Campion, for no priest was more beloved by the Catholics nor more despised by the crown. Campion was taken to the Tower and tortured. Several times he was forced to engage in debates, without benefit of notes or references and still weak and disoriented from his rackings and beatings. He acquited himself admirably, all things considered: a testament to his unparalled rhetorical skills. His trial was a farce. Witnesses were bribed, false evidence produced; in truth, the outcome had been determined since his arrival. Campion was eloquent and persuasive to the last, dominating the entire procedure with the force of his logic and his knowledge of the Scripture and law, but in vain. He and his priestly and lay companions were convicted of treason on November 14 and were sentenced to death. His address to the court upon sentencing invoked the Catholic England for which he had fought, the Catholic England which was about to die: "In condemning us, you condemn all your own ancestors—all the ancient priests, bishops and kings—all that was once the glory of England." On December 1,1581 the prophecy hanging over his door in Prague was fulfilled: Campion was hanged, drawn, and quartered. The poet Henry Walpole was there, and during the quartering some blood from Campion's entrails splashed on his coat. Walpole was profoundly changed. He went overseas, took orders, and 13 years later met his own martyrdom on English soil. Campion was beatified by Leo XIII in 1886. Todd M. Aglialoro is the editorial assistant for This Rock. This article was taken from the September, 1994 issue of "This Rock," published by Catholic Answers, P.O. Box 17490, San Diego, CA 92177, (619) 541-1131, $24.00 per year. Provided Courtesy of: Eternal Word Television Network 5817 Old Leeds Road Irondale, AL 35210 www.ewtn.com HOME - EWTNews -FAITH - TELEVISION - RADIO - LIBRARY - GALLERY - CATALOGUE - WHAT'S NEW MULTIMEDIA - GENERAL ESPAÑOL
100 posted on 12/12/2011 8:12:25 PM PST by rzman21
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