Posted on 12/11/2011 5:59:43 PM PST by rzman21
Lengthy discussion on this very passage a week or so ago. Naturally, the Cstholics try to justify themselves by “works” and ignore “faith.” Etc.
The Protestant dualism between faith and works is pagan. Where the works come from is what matters.
Do we do it for our glory or his? If we do the works for our glory and for our personal gain they are just as meaningless as a lazy faith.
And besides Protestants always ignore the Jewish law when they talk about works, which is why I posted a listing of all the works of the law that St. Paul said that the Gentiles didn’t need to do to be saved.
He’s discussing the Holiness Code in Leviticus and the Gentiles’ relation to it. He isn’t talking about what you do when you love your neighbor.
If you don’t love your neighbor as yourself and care for them then you don’t have a living faith and you follow a doctrine of demons.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I don’t worry about legalism. Maybe you should read Leviticus before commenting on salvation because that is what St. Paul is referring to when he talks about works.
We are saved by God’s grace alone, and that is good enough for me.
No one is righteous, not even one. Faith alone is the gospel of the lazy.
I found this analysis of Gnosticism vis-a-vis faith alone interesting.
nosis
First off, what does “Gnostic” mean? The term Gnostic refers to someone seeking “Gnosis”. Gnosis is the Greek word for Knowledge. It refers to direct experiential knowledge of divinity. While Gnosticism is not strictly Christian, the manner in which it will be discussed on this site lends itself quite well to Christian symbolism. Also, the form of religious ceremonial which the author has received training and ordination in is similar in many ways to the Catholic Eucharist (aka Mass.) The Roman Catholic Church is the religion in which the author was raised and it has had quite an impact on his spirituality. Therefore, it is useful to make a brief note comparing the Gnostic tradition with the two most prominent forms of Christianity. In Protestant theology, salvation comes to those with Faith. All you have to do is accept Jesus as your Lord and Master and have Faith that he died for your sins and you are guaranteed a place in Heaven. In Roman Catholicism, Faith is important, but you must back it up with Action if you are to have any chance of entering the Kingdom of God. In Gnosticism, Faith and Good Works are only stepping stones to Gnosis. Gnostics, in general, feel that “salvation” is gained through directly Knowing God. This relates to the Merkava tradition in mystical Judaism. The goal of the Merkava practice was to ascend through the various heavens (giving certain passwords and signs to gain entrance) until you reached the Throne of God and looked directly at the Face of God. Ezekiel is believed to have been a mystic from this tradition. The apocryphal books attributed to Enoch also appear to belong to this style of mysticism.
The Demi-Urge
The typical Gnostic cosmologies include an entity they call the “Demi-Urge,” who is the creator and ruler of the physical world. The term Archon (pronounced AR-kon) means “Ruler” and refer to the helpers of the Demi-Urge (who is the Chief Archon.) Although the Demi-Urge is the creator and ruler of the physical plane, he is not the God Most High (GMH). Sometimes he is named Samael, which means “Blinded of God” because he thinks himself to be the highest god. Included in these Gnostic cosmologies is a being who is a reflection or image (which implies Light) of the GMH. The Demi-Urge sees this image of a God higher them himself and gets scared. He binds this reflection (which is an entity unto itself, often called “Adam Kadmon” in Qabalistic literature) into his physical creation in an attempt to gain control over it. This was all part of the big plan (which involves a feminine character called Sophia, which I won’t go into detail about in this introductory article.) The image of GMH was shown to the Demi-Urge with the knowledge of what would happen. The reasoning behind this plan was that this image of GMH had power over the Demi-Urge. When this image remembered itself, it would overthrow the Demi-Urge from below and establish the Kingdom of God in the physical plane as it was above the realm of the Demi-Urge. According to this cosmology, the Demi-Urge either created the physical universe in a flawed manner, or that he damaged the physical plane when he uttered, “There is no God before me!” In all versions, the Demi-Urge endeavors to keep us ignorant in order to maintain control over us.
Prison Planet?
One notable version of this Gnostic cosmology states that we are to escape this prison. It states that when we die, our spirit rises through the planes in an attempt to reunite with GMH. On the way there it gets trapped by the Demi-Urge and Archons, stripped of it’s memories and sent back down into matter. The way out of this is to attain Gnosis, which will endow the Gnostic with the Knowledge that she or he has the power to overcome these Archons and how to do it. This is similar to popular Buddhist thought, where the object is to escape the physical plane of existence. In Tibetan Buddhism, they call this Liberation Through Clear Seeing in the Bardo (Bardo is the “in-between” state after physical death.) However, in Buddhism we can also see a parallel to the earlier mentioned Gnostic goal of overcoming the Demi-Urge not to escape the physical world, but to perfect/repair it. This comes in the form of the Bodhisattva ideal and in the perfect city of Shambhala.
The Bodhisattva vows to continue to reincarnate in a physical vehicle until every sentient being has been enlightened. Shambhala is a perfect city hidden somewhere in the Himalayan mountains. If you work at it, some day you will be reincarnated there. The story of Shambala is also apocalyptic. At some future time, a malevolent warlord will gain knowledge enough to find and invade Shambalah. A true black-magic practitioner and incarnation of an Archon, if not the Chief Archon. This figure also calls to mind the “Anti-Christ.” All hell breaks loose and a full world war occurs. Eventually, the powers of Good win out and Shambhala is established in the world as a whole. This should sound familiar in many ways to those who have read the book of Revelations in the Christian New Testament. Shambalah to me, represents the same thing as the New Jerusalem in that book. The whole cosmology can be summarized in four stages: Unconscious Unity (”when all was formless and void”), Unconscious Separation (after creation and still in the “Garden of Eden”), Conscious Separation (After “The Fall”) and finally Conscious Unity (”The New Jerusalem.”)
All that being said, what must be realized is that none of these complex cosmologies are true in a literal sense. They are simply allegories. Such colourful words and elaborate stories were created to express something which we do not have the words to express directly. They are the finger pointing at the moon, not the moon itself. In reality, all of these stages exist simultaneously. If the reader is familiar with the Qabalistic Tree of Life, they will understand that the primal state of Unconscious Unity represented by Kether and more especially the three veils of Negative Existence didn’t cease to “exist” once the other spheres of existence came into being. If everything in existence ultimately resolves into one, then we can see how the rest of the states of being are represented at all times. For example, rocks and trees exist in the world of duality, however they do not have the same kind of self-consciousness that humans and other animals do. This is the Unconscious Separation “stage.” Humans and most animals are aware that that they are individuals (a word stemming from the same root as “divide.”) This is the Conscious Separation stage. There are also those who are fully conscious of the fact that everything is One. That everything they experience is simply an aspect and manifestation of the one “God Most High” including themselves. Their entire existence has been transformed. The world is perfect and in unity. It is the New Jerusalem/Shambalah. This is Conscious Unity. The path that took them to that point would have been filled with difficulty, anguish and much destruction which would have appeared in their lives internally as well as externally (all is one anyways.) The story of Christ depicts one such individual who overcame division and entered that fourth stage.
Lucifer
Now for Lucifer. How does he tie into this? Well, Lucifer is that image of God Most High (GMH) that was imprisoned in matter in order to perfect it. Some of you may be thinking, “How can that be? Satan is the image of God?” In the earlier articles on this site, Lucifer and Satan are often considered separate entities. The author’s opinions and use of terminology has changed and evolved along the way but the articles are typcially shown in their original form, sometimes with minor editing. In this article, Satan is another title for the Archons and Demi-Urge. The word “satan” actually means “adversary,” so the connection with the Archons is obvious. A title of Lucifer is “The Morning Star” which is the last luminary visible in the sky before sunrise. It isn’t actually a star, but is the planet Venus. The word “lucifer” actually means “light bearer,” which gives a good general description of how the Gnostic Lucifer is viewed. This title connects Lucifer with figures in several other traditions, most notably Prometheus.
Prometheus
Prometheus stole the fire of the “gods” and brought it to mankind. As a result, he was chained to a mountain and every day, an eagle would come and eat his liver. Every night it would grow back. Eventually, Hercules came along, killed the Eagle and released Prometheus from his chains. This story, looked at from a Gnostic Luciferian viewpoint, would represent the image of GMH being imprisoned in matter for the purpose of bringing enlightenment to it. The Eagle eating the liver is symbolic of the sexual force (scorpio) being used to keep us trapped. Once the Eagle has been overcome, liberation is inevitable. This does not mean that one must destroy the sexual force or remain celibate. The verb “to know” in the bible is often used to denote sexual union. It is no coincidence that Gnosis also means Knowledge. In many Gnostic texts, Christ mentions the internal union of male and female aspects as being a key to salvation. Many esoteric traditions around the world include the physical representation of this union as an aid in attaining the internal state of union. One of these traditions which is most people have heard about is called Tantra and can be found in Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism (the Taoist Tantra is more commonly called “Internal Alchemy.”)
In Tantra, the reproductive force is conceived of in the form of a fiery serpent they call Kundalini. In the Western Mysteries, Lucifer is also conceived of as a serpent; sometimes a fire-breathing, winged serpent or a dragon. The path of directly working with the sexual force in the pursuit of Gnosis is a very difficult and rocky path. For most people, working indirectly or less directly with the sexual force tends to be the less perilous path. One could compare it to the fable of the tortoise and the hare. The hare (a symbol of vigorous sexuality, to be sure!) is able to tread the path quite quickly, but falls asleep halfway through. The tortoise takes it slow, but remains determined and progresses steadily without incident. The tortoise even reaches the goal before the hare! However, the real issue to keep in mind here is that they both reach the goal, and in real life, this isn’t a race.
The Cosmic and Indwelling Christ
So where does Jesus come into the picture? Gnostics tend not to talk a lot about Jesus, preferring rather to speak about the Christ. The difference is that Jesus was an historical figure from 2000 years ago, whereas the Christ is ever present. We can never truly Know Jesus, but we can Know the Christ. Most Gnostics will receive illumination from studying the written accounts (gospels) of the life of Jesus because this figure was closely associated with the Christ. To what extent, it is hard to know for sure. If the accounts are correct, it would appear that Jesus fully manifested the Christ. Now, what is the Christ? The Christ is identical with Lucifer, except for the fact that it has become fully Conscious. It has “remembered itself” and can now overthrow the Archons. The Christ is no longer bound by the limitations of matter (Hercules removing the chains binding Prometheus to the mountain), is no longer subject to death (”Death is swallowed up in Victory”) and can help others achieve this state. The connection between Christ and Lucifer is alluded to in the book of Revelations (which is written in the style of the books of Enoch.) In chapter 22, Christ says, “I am the root and offspring of David and the Bright and Morning Star.” The word Bright added to the beginning of the title denotes full consciousness (aka enlightenment or lucidity, both terms which have their root meaning “light.”)
Also connected with the resurrected Christ is the phrase: Death is swallowed up in Victory. This is an amazingly deep phrase. On the Qabalistic Tree of Life, Victory is the primary title of the sphere which rules the energies represented by the planet Venus. Lucifer is the title the Romans gave to Venus in it’s aspect as the Morning Star. Through the full “awakening” of the Lucifer within, even Death can be overcome and the Christ can be embodied. It may seem that this is a long ways off, but all through the writings of Adepts and Masters we are told that this can be accomplished in one lifetime. The key to this is to recognize the illusion of time and separation. All of these “stages” are present at all times and we are already one with those who are living in that stage. We just have to attune ourselves to it. That being said, becoming fully conscious of the illusion of time and separation takes place while still caught up in those illusions! Therefore, we must work in increments to increase this consciousness.
Can I love my neighbor without liking him/her?
I laugh every time I see it. They need to think like C. S. Lewis.
“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.” C.S. Lewis
There is a synergy between faith and works. They should never be pitted against each other.
We are saved by God’s infused grace that leads us to do good works, and we can always lose that grace.
16If you see a Christian brother or sisterd sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it. 17All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death. 1 John 5:16-27
Reading the scripture not for what you want it to say..but for what it does say is important
This like other parables makes much of the separation of the saved and the unsaved.... Like the wheat and the tares , the corn and the chaff on the floor, the good fish and the bad fish at the shore, Notice the sheep were rewarded for their ministry to the BRETHREN..
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Kindness to the other of the children of God (the sheep) .. taking care of their physical needs..
Mat 25:34 — Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Notice that the sheep INHERIT the Kingdom.. ..an inheritance is not an earned wage.. no one EARNS an inheritance ..it is a freely given love gift..
Children inherit from their Fathers..
The Goats were without rewards for not doing works.. Does that mean they never did a good deed in their existence? Even avid avowed atheists do kindnesses to other men.. give to charities and so on ...was this just an especially unkind group?
Well note this..
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Notice.. the word brethren is not there.. because they were never the brethren of God or the sheep, they did not have a freely given love gift from God, because they were not His children. They were not the brethren of Christ or the children of God.. The unsaved can never do a "good work" in the eyes of God (heb 11:16) ... notice they are dismissed with a curse.. no reward due them for any kindness they may have done in this life..
Also note that the sheep DID NOT DO WORKS TO BE SAVED.. they had not even considered the rewards of their good works
Mat 25:37-39 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
No where in scripture does it tell you good works save you..it does say that our good works are the FRUIT of our salvation..they are the work of God IN US AND THROUGH US
The Goats are condemned , not because they did not work, but because that work was not done to the glory of God.. They did the works of the natural man..... they had never repented and believed..and scripture tells us that what is not of Faith IS SIN, so this was a sin judgement for the goats and a reward judgement for the sheep
The God pleasing works were not self serving works to earn or secure their salvation or for the approval of men ..They flowed out of the heart of Christ as works HE HAD ORDAINED for them before the foundation of the world
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
They were not sheep because they did the work that God had ordained for them, they did the work because they were the sheep.
Gal. 2:16: "[T]hat we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified
Hear Jesus teaching on salvation by works
but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
The goats brought forth fruit..but it was not God pleasing work..
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
The goats could never do works pleasing to God no matter what they did
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
A judgement of works..... but that judgemen actually happened before the works, because they were not good "trees" to begin with (sheep)
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So the works do not make one good..but they tell us the condition of the the relationship with God
Mat 7:21
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Christ NEVER knew them, they were never saved then lost.. HE NEVER knew them , They pleaded their case on works.. BUT their fruit was rotten to the core, because its roots were not in Christ
As long as you don’t curse him/her and pray for that person. It’s best just to avoid him/her.
It is interesting, and a lot of it I have had in philosophy and from reading.
I actually do not see that it has much to do wutg everyday Christianity, the mass, the communion of saints, the church, the sacraments. Frankly, parts of it make me very uneasy.
Interesting post, thanks.
FWIW, my take on the modern gnostics is seen in their aversion to, even refusal, to acknowledge God Incarnate had a mother. This parallels the dualism aspect, the earth/body vs. spirit starkly in contrast to “in the image of God” and to the Incarnate Word in all its fullness, not just the fully God part.
It’s a split in the cosmos in this thinking, a rejection of humanity, also reflected in the Calvinist view of “thoroughly depraved.” The thinking also rejects beauty in its rejection of creation; you find these bare, stark and sterile ‘churches’ resulting from this dualism.
Combine this with the gnostic “knowing” translated into your own personal Holy Spirit, and I think you have parallels with the individualistic fundamentalist theology.
So then you are sure you have done enough, kept the commandments well enough? You are sure you are saved?
You set up a strawman here.
No where in scripture does it tell you good works save you..it does say that our good works are the FRUIT of our salvation..they are the work of God IN US AND THROUGH US
>>That’s what Catholics believe.
We are not saved yet. Salvation is yet to come. Did you read what Dr. Marshner wrote?
Catholics distinguish between justification and sanctification. We really are not that far apart. We are just using different terminology.
>>>>>They pleaded their case on works.. BUT their fruit was rotten to the core, because its roots were not in Christ
WRONG!!! Christ rewarded those who fed the hungry, healed the sick, clothed the naked and visited those in prison. That is not “fruit that is rotten to the core.” Followers who cast out demons and prophecied were the ones who were condemned.
See post 60.
I understand that spiritual things are spiritually discerned ...but reading for content can even be done by anyone
What does brethren mean? Who are the brethren of Christ?
What does INHERIT mean? Did I misstate the meaning?
I gave you a clear reading of the text..every word that proceeds from the mouth of God needs to be read.. I supplied supporting texts..
You can "dismiss it if you are unable to respond to it.. BUT the word of God is never a straw-man
Yes, faith AND works go together just as the TWO blades of a pair of scissors go together. One bladed scissors just don’t cut it.......pun intended.
Maybe you should read Leviticus..it is a beautiful book..it prefigures Christ.. you see Him in every chapter
So then you are sure you have done enough, kept the commandments well enough? You are sure you are saved?
>>I’m not a legalist. I’m working out my salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation is in the future, and whether I am among the elect is known to God alone.
It is blasphemy to run around proclaiming that you are already saved because the Last Judgment is yet to come, and you are telling God that you are entitled to salvation.
It’s not unlike the Occupy Wall Streeters who run around saying they are entitled to everything.
If you want to understand St. Paul, study Judaism. If you want to understand Christianity, study ancient Judaism.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.